Star Trek

[Metaliturtle]

Glad you've got her in this jumbleytown you made then

[Buster's Uncle]

Yes.

[Unorthodox]

And I did like the character of Lily Sloane in First Contact.

As a fan of the only Trek/Horror crossover, I'm sorry, but Alice Krige totally stole that movie.  Lily Sloane did make Stewart's stage acting tolerable, though. 

[Buster's Uncle]

Rape survivor revenge story -an honorable horrorish trope in addition to the creepy Borg running around like zombie hordes- and so he needed more than usual to play it big and hit the back seats...

[Buster's Uncle]

Star Trek: The Motion Picture, for all its considerable crippling flaws, is a much better watch in later edited releases (especially with a remote in your hand to fast-forward through the expensive long exterior FX scenes and concentrating on the people), and is the only one that I find to have made a credible on-model Star Trek with the right kind of look and themes we loved in the real thing on TV.

The Wrath of Khan, loser of absolutely zero polls ever in this contentious world for best ST film, was undeniably an infinitely superior film --- that was pretty off-model and ruined everything that followed with its dominatingly successful example.  Military procedure dialogue, uniforms that look like military uniforms -you may think Star Trek space pajamas are hilarious, but that's the ST look- and a story about violence and death.  Off-model for ST, if a thrilling little adventure tale - and ST did those a lot, but ST's claim to legitimacy as good science fiction (and no small part of what speaks to us fans of the Real Thing) is in its Jonathan Swiftian political analogy.  The show was about ideas, with adventure tales as mass appeal added.  TWOK was about an adventure on the model of Moby Dick and Paradise Lost, with some good grace notes about feeling old and then young appended.  Not as much about the ideas/ideals, the question the crappy first had about life the universe and everything for an example of ST:TMP doing right, if failing.

Hated In Search Of: Spock.  I cried when he died, I loves the Spock - but it was a logical death, and a creative mistake to resurrect him, especially in such an inferior movie.

Hated The Voyage Home a lot more - the Mcguffin didn't actually make any sense, in that the deal with the probe was never explained -stupid, just incompetent plotting there- and I didn't find the jokes very funny.  It was Star Trek for people who hate  Star Trek, and I don't care that a lot of people are wrong and like it - I'm sticking to my guns.

Hated Star Trek V: The Final Frontier a lot less than most fans did.  It wasn't --- good, but it had a few moments, and for all that it was done in the WOK look, the theme was the only other on-model ST-appropriate one, if, like TMP before it, executed very badly.

I liked one thing (and that only) about The Voyage Home - Captain Sulu.  He studied for many years at the feet of the Ascended Master of starship captaincy, Kirk, as Kirk's most focused and reliable person on the bridge besides Spock -watch the show and try to tell me differently- and now he's taken his turn in the big chair, drinking his freakin' tea like nothing can touch him, letting his people know he Always Knows What To Do - and he's doing it his way, not, with all respect, the Master's.  He's his own man, he learned his lessons well, and our little Sulu is all grown up - and Good At His Job.  -He always was.


...I may follow up with similar on the fake/TNG movies, but in my personal headcannon, Spock is still heroically dead, and nothing since really happened.  Green1 can call me a bittervet^TM all he wants - it's my head and that's my Star Trek.

[Unorthodox]

Rape survivor revenge story -an honorable horrorish trope in addition to the creepy Borg running around like zombie hordes- and so he needed more than usual to play it big and hit the back seats...

Eh, it's his schtick.  Rarely does he break away from stage acting, and NEVER when he tries to show any emotion.  One of my favorite episodes of TNG is where he's being tortured by insert bad cardassian here.  The Cardassian delivers a stellar performance, and gets responded by multiple slips into stage acting by Stewart. 

I mean, he even overdid SCROOGE, a role written for such a stage actor, then they piled on the ghost of christmas jawa. ugh.   

[Buster's Uncle]

You don't have to sell me on Stewart being over-rated as an actor, as you know, and you put your finger on exactly his shortcoming.  But he is --- never terrible.  These Royal Shakespeare Company people almost never are, if not as good as most people think they are.

The normal low-affect tendencies of Picard are by design, I daresay, and not a bad design, creatively; he's old bald Kirk in concept, after all.  (And they failed utterly in attempts to sell that Picard was ever young Kirk, but still.)

First Contact, as Picard's rape survivor metaphor story, was Picard losing it, Picard out of control - explicitly in the story, ex. machine-gunning the Borg on the holodeck.  You may have seen his performance beats coming, may have found it all too obvious, but the arc called for Big Performance.  Personally, I wanted the movie to suck very much after the previous, and that I enjoyed it at all on any level was a triumph - and enjoy it I did, considerably, for all its flaws.

[Unorthodox]

...I may follow up with similar on the fake/TNG movies, but in my personal headcannon, Spock is still heroically dead, and nothing since really happened.  Green1 can call me a bittervet^TM all he wants - it's my head and that's my Star Trek.

Please do. 

ST TMP:  Damn near put me off Trek all together, watching at a young age. 

TWOK:  My second favorite of any movies.  Good Buck Rogers feel to it in a lot of ways made it FUN. 

I'd need a synopsis of the rest just to be able to tell which is which...maybe watched them once.  Twice if there was nothing else on before netflix. 

Generations:  All but unwatchable

First Contact:  My personal favorite ST film, mostly due to it's admitted influence from Aliens (which happens to be my favorite scifi and horror movie).  It has enough of that horror element for my tastes, and thus comes off less "clean" than a lot of the Trek shows.  It's a dirty universe, the captain has flaws, the enemies are ruthless and fight dirty, it just works for me.  Directing is reminiscent of early Sam Raimi work in places. 

Insurrection:  Plays like a bigger, longer TV episode.  That's not a BAD thing, but there wasn't much remarkable either.  See lots of lost opportunities for more moral dillema and more horror for both what the enemies were going through and were about to do to the 'good guys'.  Paramount wanted it "lighter tone" though, and I think it suffers from that decision most. 

Nemesis:  WTF?  This wasn't Trek or TNG as far as I can tell, and bad SciFi at that.  Not an awful story, really.  Bad choice of directors, IMO.  It's not like Frakes was totally messing up the previous two films, and half the cast rebelled at the decision and it shows on screen as they just cash the check.

[Unorthodox]

First Contact, as Picard's rape survivor metaphor story, was Picard losing it, Picard out of control - explicitly in the story, ex. machine-gunning the Borg on the holodeck.  You may have seen his performance beats coming, may have found it all too obvious, but the arc called for Big Performance.  Personally, I wanted the movie to suck very much after the previous, and that I enjoyed it at all on any level was a triumph - and enjoy it I did, considerably, for all its flaws.

I get it, he is what he is, and he delivered about the best you could expect.  It wasn't BAD, but it's certainly worth mentioning.  Just saying that Lily Sloane helps to mitigate some of that coming from Picard as they get attached to the hip, and I think her presense probably makes this the best Picard showing of the movies (series) hands down.  Something none of the regulars could manage.  He never really had a good foil, as Kirk had with Spock.  She gives him that in a way no one else could. 

[Buster's Uncle]

Please do.

I will.  I probably would have anyway, since Turtle asked for this kind of thing and I both aims to please and have something to say -despite all my bittervet^TM stuff sliming this thread from end to end, I'm an actual TNG/DS9/Voyager/Enterprise fan who watched them pretty much in full, and enjoyed them and wished they were better - not something -I confidently, if arrogantly, assert- that most fake Star Track fans can say in reverse.

We should all do overviews of the various shows in the same vein, according to our knowledge, actually.

[Buster's Uncle]

I get it, he is what he is, and he delivered about the best you could expect.  It wasn't BAD, but it's certainly worth mentioning.  Just saying that Lily Sloane helps to mitigate some of that coming from Picard as they get attached to the hip, and I think her presense probably makes this the best Picard showing of the movies (series) hands down.  Something none of the regulars could manage.  He never really had a good foil, as Kirk had with Spock.  She gives him that in a way no one else could.

You're right about John Luke having no Spock, for all that Data was sitting right there hitting a lot of Spock's story beats in his own way (nor did he have a McCoy), and excellent point.

But I have to disagree about Lily - Dr. Crusher would have been less exposition-friendly, but could have otherwise filled the exact same role, likely even better - and given the poor woman something to do.  I'm sure that you will be shocked, SHOCKED to hear that I think there were a lot of very bad writers among the Brannon Bragga hack posse.

[Unorthodox]

We should all do overviews of the various shows in the same vein, according to our knowledge, actually.

Original:  Have liked what I've seen, but it's been out of order and sporratic.  As a kid, I always wondered why it looked so crappy when Battlestar Gallactica looked so good, yet both were on TV.  I've grown to accept the technological differences, and even appreciate what older shows managed to pull off.  It is very dated, though, and if you can't look past that, it's best to avoid. 

TNG:  Watched sporratically with the first awful season, and began to appreciate it several seasons in.  It's a very hit or miss show where some episodes really suck and some are pretty good. 

DS9:  My favorite series, watched from the get go.  Yes, it's Star Trek does Babylon 5, but it holds up better, and Garrick (garrack?) is my favorite character of all star trek.  Like the movies above, the series shows it's a dirty world, the federation has flaws, the commander/captain has flaws, the enemies are ruthless, etc.  Something a lot of Trek misses.  The Sisko is the prophet stuff falls flat a lot of times, and Ducat regularly steals scenes IMO.  But, I love me a good villain so that might just be me.  Where Picard is usually at his best when dealing with a quiet relationship, Sisko is at his worst, and his kid is an albatross most the time.  Overall I like the more defined story arch of the series as a whole. 

Voyager:  WANTED to like really bad.  I just couldn't get with it.  Interesting idea of mixing the two crews and how it would lead to all kinds of problems.....and it never did.  What the hell?  The Doctor ALMOST manages to save the show, and is absolutely the best thing about the series.  Tuvok plays it straight, and the actor deserves mention as well.  I really wanted to like Janeway, but never managed, always thought Chakote would make the better captain for their particular plight. 

Enterprise:  I struggled with quantum leap captain, and whoever the vulcan chick was really could take some lessons from Tuvok if not Spock.  Then all the temporal cival war and alternate history BS started and I lost interest all together.  A faceless mass of a crew in my mind with no one really standing out.  The alternative medical treatments are about all I remember as being somewhat clever.  The Star Trek equivalent of treating with leaches.  In fact, they might have in one episode, literally. 

[Buster's Uncle]

I realized I needed to amend the OP of this thread because of that thing Green1 keeps calling me, and because the teasing of my good pal sisko inevitably is going to -and has- put off Fans O' Fake.

I'm aware of a few subtle hints that our leader likes Star Trek, at least fake Star Trek, and I know I LOVE the REAL Star Trek, so let's talk about it...



[EDIT:  I want to interject that I don't think I admitted explicitly in this thread until today, nearly 3.5 years later, that I am a fan of TNG/DS9/Voyager/and even Enterprise who watched them all pretty much in full and enjoyed them and wished they were better - and that the original had flaws.  I have written professionally a little and acted professionally (if wildly underpayed) a fair amount, and I do have a high opinion of my own opinion, claiming extensive knowledge of the subject as I do - but I don't want to put fans of TNG-era ST off.  Love what you love, proclaim your love and engage me and the other fans courteously.  You're wanted here.

We love Star Trek, and want to talk about it.

AbramsTrek love will be treated with respect towards the member expressing, but your ideas will tend to need extremely vigorous and articulate defense, not least because you couldn't be wronger. ]

[Unorthodox]

But I have to disagree about Lily - Dr. Crusher would have been less exposition-friendly, but could have otherwise filled the exact same role, likely even better - and given the poor woman something to do.  I'm sure that you will be shocked, SHOCKED to hear that I think there were a lot of very bad writers among the Brannon Bragga hack posse.

Yeah, Whoopie (However you spell that character name) serves that purpose on occasion, too, and manages when given the opportunity in the series. 

The problem with Beverley was she skipped out on a season or two, fairly early, and they filled her shoes with a foil for Data in the somehow tech averse doctor whatshername.   

[Valka]

My favorite is, of course, the Original Series (TOS). My second favorite is Voyager, followed by the Animated Series, Next Generation, Deep Space Nine, and I don't like Enterprise at all. So that's the TV shows.

Movies... well, in my opinion only the first 4 TOS movies were any good. And I did like the character of Lily Sloane in First Contact. The rest of the movies range from "not very good" to "what a waste of resources it was, making this garbage."

Fan films... There are a lot of them! I tend to follow only a couple of series, though, and both are based on TOS. Phase II/New Voyages has put out quite a lot of fan films, some guest-starring George Takei and Walter Koenig. Those are the better ones, in my estimation. Star Trek Continues hasn't done as many, but the quality of those they have done is top-notch. It looks and feels almost like real Star Trek. There are a couple of other fan film series I've seen, and they go strictly for humor: Stone Trek, which is Star Trek done in the style of the Flintstones, and The Red Shirt Diaries, which is told from the POV of a female red shirt who has, so far, managed to survive.

NuTrek (aka Abramstrek, Abramsverse, JJverse)... if you're into pointless retcons, actors who can't act, plots that make no sense, an Engineering room that looks like a brewery, gratuitous underwear scenes (really, if you don't want the guy to look when you're changing, don't stand there and pose for him when he does sneak a look), completely unprofessional officers (Captain, I know this is a serious mission and we could be killed, but just shut up while I whine at my boyfriend, kthxbai), and blatant ripoffs of what's been done before, in a far superior way with much better actors... well, nuTrek would be for you.

However, TV and movies and fan films are not all that's available. Add in hundreds of novels and fanfic stories that number in... probably the millions (including the terrific Valjiir series, stories and artwork by members of this very forum - see the Valjiir thread for more information ).

See Buncle, this is what should be encouraged, I'm actually gonna watch star trek because of this post.

Yay! (and thanks - it's always nice to know that my posts are appreciated  )

Valka is pure gold.

Glad you've got her in this jumbleytown you made then

Yes.

You two have just made not only my day, but my week as well.

Thank you, both.