SMAC within SMAX

[Nexii]

@Nexii The advantage to "pruning" SMAX to make it like SMAC is that you can reap the benefits of the newer engine. If SMAX didn't have some structural improvements, I would continue to play SMAC. However, I think that it has something to offer. I generally agree with your points about aliens next to my point that they should be kept a mystery. (I.e., who did make the borehole cluster?)

I feel uncertain about how I would want to "expand" the original universe. My first step would be to consolidate. I'm watching Dio's work with the redone factions with interest. My tastes for factions may be more minimal, though; I like the existing number of statistic modifiers for each faction currently.

Yea if you don't care for the alien factions, then I guess you can start by pruning out everything Progenitor - and possibly the new 5 factions also.  There's probably more room for new human factions in the storyline though - or at least to me they would have made more sense.  SMAX went more the route of re-mix and ret-con rather than truly expanding the story.  I think the issue may have been, they wanted new factions and gameplay without forcing everyone to play an accelerated start or one-map scenario.

And I do agree, the tendency of faction makers seems to be to give a huge amount of bonuses and penalties, with less thought on how those modifiers go with their theme.  I will say the SMAX factions had modifiers that made sense. 

"If you build it they will come" is probably a good mantra.  If you make good improvements, others will play with them.  I'm sure that after 15 years of AC, we would all like to see new factions, gameplay, and story.  I think what you're getting at is that the story is what made the original more compelling than SMAX, but SMAX had the better gameplay (generally).

[ete]

+1 on this idea. I don't have a clue how to solve the problem, though.

The division of player community on SMAC vs SMACX is not for the good for the legacy of the game.
I may prefer the first one, others the second one. But once there are patches, scenarios and work done, it becomes a problem of compatibility.

If this was created, would you likely switch your focus to porting changes to the SMAX engine/working there (and integrating with yitzi?) so that users who prefer both SMAC and SMAX can play with improved AI?

Advantages: More playtesters, useful to more people, SMAX engine includes a bunch of bugfixes and general improvements, gives compatiability with more scenarios/custom factions, avoiding working on two patches at once, and keeps the fully authentic SMAC feel

Disadvantages: One off extra work porting over changes, having to occasionally sanity check the SMAX version, extra work learning the changed functions in SMAX, more importance on co-ordinating with yitzi (the last two would be greatly improved if you two share what you've found with each other in full, with agreement that AI is kryub's domain and yitzi's mostly focusing on extra modability, with bugfixing open to you both)

As for the project, I'm one of the people who thinks a larger game with more options is generally better, so am pretty happy playing SMAX even if it was not as well done as the original. However if this existing would convince kryub to shift development to the SMAX engine then I'm massively for it and, if it's not done by the time I get back to england, will contribute what I can to get it set up.

[Buster's Uncle]

I believe kyrub will reply that the AI is managed differently for X and his work isn't really port-able.

But I do love the idea.

[diessa]

Nexii, I would say that SMAX has better gameplay, nominally. It is "better" by virtue of having a bit more development time spent on it after release. It doesn't add too much, but it, as a platform, is the best tool; that's why I suggest that it could be useful if we are, at minimum, recreating SMAC and, at maximum, refurbishing parts of it. My argument here is that the story/faction "extras" added in SMAX, and even by mods, miss part out of the "feel" of the game. It is interesting that, after 15 years, the "feel" is what has struck a chord in a thread such as this. I've noticed that so many games, expansions, and mods go the route of "more" but this often makes them temporary in their appeal.

[Yitzi]

If this was created, would you likely switch your focus to porting changes to the SMAX engine/working there (and integrating with yitzi?) so that users who prefer both SMAC and SMAX can play with improved AI?

Advantages: More playtesters, useful to more people, SMAX engine includes a bunch of bugfixes and general improvements, gives compatiability with more scenarios/custom factions, avoiding working on two patches at once, and keeps the fully authentic SMAC feel

Disadvantages: One off extra work porting over changes, having to occasionally sanity check the SMAX version, extra work learning the changed functions in SMAX, more importance on co-ordinating with yitzi (the last two would be greatly improved if you two share what you've found with each other in full, with agreement that AI is kryub's domain and yitzi's mostly focusing on extra modability, with bugfixing open to you both)

I'd be happy to share what I've learned (kyrub, send me a PM if you'd like the summaries of what I have so far), though:
1) Some of kyrub's SMAC changes are more than I feel are appropriate to make as unchangeable, and so would not be included with my patch unless he's willing to make them dependent on either the appropriate alphax variables (which determine if they're a good idea) or a new one; I'd give him a location for the flag and then he'd write it into the port, and I'd take care of loading it.
2) We're not sure how portable things are from SMAC to SMAX.

[kyrub]

If this was created, would you likely switch your focus to porting changes to the SMAX engine/working there (and integrating with yitzi?) so that users who prefer both SMAC and SMAX can play with improved AI?

I would try to port the whole work on AI to SMAX if

A) It would be possible to switch to totally unaltered SMAC gameplay (which means, no Progenitors, no Cloudbase academy, no extra probe techs and buildings, no Battle Ogres etc. All SMAX content out.)
B) The switching to SMAC would be technically simple, like with an option in alphax.txt, or with clicking another (modified) .exe, or with a simple combination of 2-3 steps. So that every SMACer can play his game easily.

I'd be willing to help with finding the .exe instances necessary, though Yitzi certainly knows better in SMAX.

[Yitzi]

I would try to port the whole work on AI to SMAX if

A) It would be possible to switch to totally unaltered SMAC gameplay (which means, no Progenitors, no Cloudbase academy, no extra probe techs and buildings, no Battle Ogres etc. All SMAX content out.)
B) The switching to SMAC would be technically simple, like with an option in alphax.txt, or with clicking another (modified) .exe, or with a simple combination of 2-3 steps. So that every SMACer can play his game easily.

I'd be willing to help with finding the .exe instances necessary, though Yitzi certainly knows better in SMAX.

Well, it looks like once I finish my own list, enabling SMAC gameplay with a technically simple switch will probably be the next step.  This is the proper thread for it anyway, so perhaps we should make as complete a list as we can come up with of the stuff that would need changing.  The tech tree and factions are an obvious one, and easy.  I can also think of the new native life forms (all but fungal towers could simply be changed to equal the corresponding old ones and made unbuildable) and battle ogres from pods.  Plus the changed menu graphics and opening movie.  Anything else?

[Geo]

A) It would be possible to switch to totally unaltered SMAC gameplay (which means, no Progenitors, no Cloudbase academy, no extra probe techs and buildings, no Battle Ogres etc. All SMAX content out.)

Most of what you want seems possible by adjusting the alphax file. Disabling/relinking techs, weapons, abilities, buildings and SP's shouldn't be a sweat. Ogres, Sealurks, and Spore Launchers can be reconfigured to mind worms and isles of the deep. Fungal Towers are a bit of a problem though since those are immovable units and can let fungus grow in adjacent tiles which is strictly speaking a change from SMAC play.
You deem the removal of the algorithmic enhancement ability a necessity, or the possibility of liberation of imprisoned leaders for that matter?

[ete]

That all sounds very promising .

[Ford_Prefect]

You deem the removal of the algorithmic enhancement ability a necessity, or the possibility of liberation of imprisoned leaders for that matter?

I don't see why you would have to get rid of liberation.  No one uses it anyway. :-D
Algorithmic enhancement.... could be balanced.  Would be easy to remove or add. (though the tech tree options)

[Geo]

Something that can't be removed by the alphax file are landmarks AFAIK. Unity Wreckage, Manifold Nexus, that reef landmark...

[Ford_Prefect]

Hmmmm.... a frontend for SMAC/SMAX for changing what factions/rulesets are in use.   Doesn't sound to hard.

[Geo]

  No one uses it anyway. :-D

I did once in a PBEM. To great consternation of a veteran SMACX player.
Com'on, would you let Deedee be tortured in a Punishment Sphere if there are more pleasant options?

[Buster's Uncle]

I'd dance with her if she'd let me

[diessa]

While beginning with recreating SMAC within SMAX is a logical starting point, how might we determine what SMAX additions are sensible to keep or new additions ought to be made? What criteria would we have for this project? In the interim, a full reversion is sensible; it provides the community with a base to work with from there.