Some help with a faction set

[Sigma]

Welcome to the forum, Sigma.
On Satori,does it need to be an English title? With his background, you could as well use a Japanese one. Toreda for instance  (meaning trader).

That's an option, but I think Guildmaster works for what I'm going for. I'd rather there not be a need for a footnote on such an integral part of the faction's identity. Atsumi doesn't view her Japanese heritage as a crucial part of her identity, and a major theme of this faction set is viewing Planet as a new beginning, so it wouldn't be consistent.

I've attached the txt files for the Technocrat Foundation and the Sons of the Advent. Again, the alien dialog isn't complete yet for the aforementioned reason but I'll get that worked out.  Post your thoughts and comments.

Next up is working on the Peacekeeper type group.  I'm thinking of calling them the Colonial Union (Union for short), but that seems a little generic.

[ete]

Energy reserves gain +5% interest per turn (Commerce, 2)
Increased commerce rate {Experienced traders and merchants} (Interest, 5)

It's been a while since I messed with Commerce or Interest; how would these numbers impacts the faction's performance?

Energy interest is extremely powerful, especially in the hands of a faction with some other energy bonuses. 5% would be by far the biggest bonus the faction has, even 1-2% is significant (at 1000 energy, which you can build up naturally earlyish game with some saving, that's still 10-20 credits a turn and makes saving up more much easier). Commerce basically means the faction has a strong reason to stay at peace with as many factions as possible, and be pacted where it can be, which probably fits well with your goal for the faction.

Also, probe bonuses are not that great for actually using probes oddly enough, they mostly help protect you from foe probes. A +2 Probe Morale bonus is kinda nice, but generally you can train probes to elite through a few easy missions, and only have to buy some extras to compensate. Plus lategame all probes are generally elite anyway, and the - Morale will counteract half the probe bonus.

[Sigma]

So are you saying that I should reduce Satori's Interest bonus to something closer to 3? Or in your opinion does the fact that her primary social bonus is sort of weak compensate for that? Having the interest rate be Satori's key strength works well in my opinion, since House Satori advertises themselves as merchants first and spies second, but nobody is ignorant of the fact that they ARE also spies. As far as the -Morale counteracting the ++Probe, maybe instead of a negative moral social rank I could give them a -1 or -2 Morale modifier. This would make it harder for her to raise experienced troops, but it wouldn't be an across the board cut to combat efficiency that would also neuter her probes.


I've prepared sort of a first draft of the fourth faction, the Colonial Authority, or Authority for short.

(click to show/hide)

^LEADER: {Valentin Basque}
^BACKGROUND: {French Republic, Unity Chief of Staff}
^AGENDA: {Colonial Unity}
^TECH: {Applied Physics}

#DATALINKS2
^+1 SUPPORT:   {Well funded militia}
^+1 POLICE: {Strict legal system}
^-2 RESARCH:  {Resources divereted to military spending
^All units gain Non-Lethal Methods upon discovery of Intellectual Integrity
^+15% Defense {Well equipped security forces}

For the record, Marshall Valentin is a woman. I know exactly what her leader portrait is going to be.

One significant thing about the Authority is that they have no anti-Ideology. Their goal in governance is to unite the colonies under the original mission parameters, and they'll do it by hook or by crook, so whatever works for them is what they'll go with. Their inclination is towards Power and Support, however, so Basque is not likely to rule with a gentle hand. The research penalty is actually a little neutered here because all of the factions in this set, as I mentioned, have a passive techshare 4 ability, so while Basque is likely to be at the rear of the pack she probably isn't going to be left in the stone age.  I considered giving her an efficiency penalty but if she ever picked Police State or Planned Economics it would cripple her economy in one fell swoop.

Here is another angle I could at, though:

(click to show/hide)

^+1 SUPPORT:   {Well funded militia}
^+1 GROWTH: {Expansionist regime}
^-2 RESARCH:  {Resources divereted to military spending
^All units gain Non-Lethal Methods upon discovery of Intellectual Integrity
^+15% Defense {Well equipped security forces}

What this does is change how the faction operates depending on whether Basque chooses Democratic or Police State politics. In this event I would make Fundamentalism her Anti-Ideology to force her to choose. If she goes Democratic then her growth rate skyrockets but it cuts into her ability to field troops; therefore the Authority could potentially become the most expansive faction but lose some of its military potential. Conversely, if she picks Police State, she can field a huge army and is basically immune to drone problems but will always be at the end of the tech race between her Research penalty and Police State's efficiency rate.

What does everyone think? Writing this last paragraph made the second option seem much more interesting to me.

[Geo]

To me, it sounds anathema to have a faction spent much of its income to its military, but NOT more advanced weaponry for said military (research thus). Even North Korea, a country known for its outdated military equipment, made sure to have the rare capability to perform a nuclear strike at distance.
Another example could be Iran, who isn't shy either at fielding military counter measures against its most likely opponent's literally massive strike equipment.

[Sigma]

To me, it sounds anathema to have a faction spent much of its income to its military, but NOT more advanced weaponry for said military (research thus). Even North Korea, a country known for its outdated military equipment, made sure to have the rare capability to perform a nuclear strike at distance.
Another example could be Iran, who isn't shy either at fielding military counter measures against its most likely opponent's literally massive strike equipment.

Well bear in mind that "Research" means more than just better weapons. It also means discovering new fields of science, buiding methods and economic principles. Basque thinks all of that is less important than maintaining law and order and bringing the factions back under one government.

[ete]

I'd be inclined to test Satori with maybe +3 commerce and either no or 1-2% interest, interest promotes leaving a load of cash in the bank, commerce bonuses promote exploring to meet other factions fast and staying at peace with them. The second seems more like the kind of tactic you want to encourage, and additionally, it's likely the AI will not be able to play to the strengths of energy interest while a human can use it extremely well even at low numbers.

For the most recently posted, there seems to be not much as far as very important bonuses, and -2 Research is quite harsh. I'd consider dropping it to -1 research and adding some other minor disadvantage, or reducing the bonus to +10% defense. And Police seems to be a more likely bonus than Growth, growing yourself is not directly helping unify others, keeping population under tight control (especially conquered bases) is. Still, probably a fairly balanced faction.

[Buster's Uncle]

I've seen interest turn out to be a real game breaker in the occasional old custom faction - like, getting over a million EC by mid-game...

[Sigma]

I'd be inclined to test Satori with maybe +3 commerce and either no or 1-2% interest, interest promotes leaving a load of cash in the bank, commerce bonuses promote exploring to meet other factions fast and staying at peace with them. The second seems more like the kind of tactic you want to encourage, and additionally, it's likely the AI will not be able to play to the strengths of energy interest while a human can use it extremely well even at low numbers.

For the most recently posted, there seems to be not much as far as very important bonuses, and -2 Research is quite harsh. I'd consider dropping it to -1 research and adding some other minor disadvantage, or reducing the bonus to +10% defense. And Police seems to be a more likely bonus than Growth, growing yourself is not directly helping unify others, keeping population under tight control (especially conquered bases) is. Still, probably a fairly balanced faction.

That's some good feedback. I took your advice with Satori and switched around the bonuses for their Commerce and Interest. It seems like I'm really playing with fire when it comes to Interest, so that will need more fine tuning.

So for the Authority, you're saying keep +1 Support and +1 Police but downgrade Research to -1 and add another penalty. Is it possible to have a negative number in the Psi Modifier? Because I think that would work well (the Authority are better equipped to deal with people than native lifeforms) but it's not an option in the Faction Editor, but I could just edit the text file.

[JarlWolf]

I suggest for the Planetarian Authority faction that for their second drawback is you make them also have a hurry penalty. The reasoning: Resources, while they do go into the military the Authority is going to be an organization that will have multiple fronts. It won't have the resources to spare to individual bases and sectors as it needs to supply all fronts so whatever a front gets, it has to make do with. So maybe have a hurry penalty of maybe 15-25% or something.

As for a PSI penalty, text edit is the only way to do it I think, morale is the only way I know how to give a penalty fighting native units. If you can't text edit it my suggestion is- Lower morale to -1, but give them an attack/defence bonus. This will translate for conventional fighting but it won't for PSI.

[Sigma]

I suggest for the Planetarian Authority faction that for their second drawback is you make them also have a hurry penalty. The reasoning: Resources, while they do go into the military the Authority is going to be an organization that will have multiple fronts. It won't have the resources to spare to individual bases and sectors as it needs to supply all fronts so whatever a front gets, it has to make do with. So maybe have a hurry penalty of maybe 15-25% or something.

I was actually thinking exactly that. With everyone out in the field their factories are understaffed.

With that in mind, would it be overpowered to increase either their Support or Police rank to +2? The +1 for both seems kinda anemic when compared to the hassle of playing with -2 Research plus the Hurry penalty.

[JarlWolf]

With that in mind, would it be overpowered to increase either their Support or Police rank to +2? The +1 for both seems kinda anemic when compared to the hassle of playing with -2 Research plus the Hurry penalty.

Support goes farther then you think actually, let me tell you from my own experience with my labour of love the Crimson Comrades. Support means you can field more units easier, grow larger bases or even have more minerals to spare. This means this can translate to an energy upgrade if you mass produce colony pods and produce smaller settlements and grow them to be economic hubs.  My Crimson Comrades for example in game are great attrition fighters, they can take a beating and still churn out more while the enemy, in order to keep up has to spend valuable minerals and energy on where it could be applied for research. With your faction it'll be like the Comrades somewhat just to a lesser extent, and for the Authority you'll have to worry far less about making facilities to appease your citizens due to the police and conquering bases won't require too large of a military.

I think it's balanced with the changes suggested. If you were to change anything I'd put POLICE up to +2 so you can man bases far better, because your forces aren't going to be as numerous with this faction as every man counts.

[ete]

I'd be inclined to test Satori with maybe +3 commerce and either no or 1-2% interest, interest promotes leaving a load of cash in the bank, commerce bonuses promote exploring to meet other factions fast and staying at peace with them. The second seems more like the kind of tactic you want to encourage, and additionally, it's likely the AI will not be able to play to the strengths of energy interest while a human can use it extremely well even at low numbers.

For the most recently posted, there seems to be not much as far as very important bonuses, and -2 Research is quite harsh. I'd consider dropping it to -1 research and adding some other minor disadvantage, or reducing the bonus to +10% defense. And Police seems to be a more likely bonus than Growth, growing yourself is not directly helping unify others, keeping population under tight control (especially conquered bases) is. Still, probably a fairly balanced faction.

That's some good feedback. I took your advice with Satori and switched around the bonuses for their Commerce and Interest. It seems like I'm really playing with fire when it comes to Interest, so that will need more fine tuning.

So for the Authority, you're saying keep +1 Support and +1 Police but downgrade Research to -1 and add another penalty. Is it possible to have a negative number in the Psi Modifier? Because I think that would work well (the Authority are better equipped to deal with people than native lifeforms) but it's not an option in the Faction Editor, but I could just edit the text file.

Glad you appreciate the feedback, and yea, +1 Support / +1 Police seems reasonable, but -2 Research seems harsh. Not having another penalty and keeping the current other bonuses would probably be too powerful, with the Hurry modifier suggested by Jarl being a good idea imo. And I'd not be keen to go to +2 on either of the bonuses, it's strong enough.

Comments on other factions:

The Technocrat Foundation
Leader: Founder Josef Federov
Background: Republic of Ukraine, Unity Chief Engineer
Agenda: Advancing technological frontiers
Vision: Conquering death and human disunity by merging man and machine
Points of Reference: Ian M. Bank's Culture novels, Hannu Rajaneimi's The Quantum Thief series

Starting Tech: Information Networks
+1 RESEARCH:  {Focused on scientific advancement}
+1 EFFIC:   {AIs regulation}
-2 GROWTH:  {Emphasis of mind over body}
Free NETWORK NODE at every base
Extra DRONE for every four citizens {(ideology alienates many)}
Immune to EFFICIENCY penalties {Computer assisted society}
May not use Power Values.

--A bit derivative of the University, but for good reason; Zacharov did it best and why mess with perfection? I reduced the research bonus by 1 because the Efficiency bonus and immunity to Efficiency penalties would more than offset it. The University's probe penalty has been replaced with a penalty to Growth, as a society so heavily rooted in computer science would have better network security than Zacharov's vision of a worldwide college town; moreover Probe penalties are fairly toothless in a game where the Hunter Seeker Algorithm exists. I could use a better explanation for the Growth penalty apart from the CyberCon's "how is babby formed?" excuse. The leader is inspired by the Russian philosopher Nicholai Fyodorov, who believed that the ultimate aim of science should be the unification of mankind against the "blind-force" of nature, and was one of the first transhumanists.

Very much a Uni/CyCon hybrid, and in a way taking the best of both. The Effic immunity makes running Police State/Planned pretty viable at least early on, which counteracts the drone problems and balances out growth (though pop booming is still hard). Overall, I'd say this faction is probably stronger than the original human ones, because it has a good collection of notable bonuses for a builder with only a couple of disadvantages. It also feels a bit too similar to uni, particularly the free NN. Plus, unlike most builder factions, it can run PS/Planned like Yang to field a large army and keep drones under control while still having solid income/research.

I'd be inclined to change several of the things which make it like the Uni, perhaps dropping the free NNs and the extra drones (Zak experimented on his population, these guys seem a lot more moral than that), and perhaps introduce some combat penalty to give them a clear weakness? e.g. -1 Morale (Citizens fear death and want to avoid combat)

Sons of the Advent
Leader: Brother Joaquin el-Kadiz
Background: Free Afghanistan, Unity Astrophysicist
Agenda: Acquiring spiritual enlightenment
Vision: Messianic transcendence
Points of Reference: Frank Herbert's Dune

Starting Tech: Social Psych
25% Fanatic bonus on offense
+2 PLANET: {Believe that Planet is sacred and must be protected}
-1 ECONOMY: {Limited commercial interests}
-1 INDUSTRY: {Weak industrial base}
All units gain the Hypnotic Trance ability upon discovery of Secrets of the Human Brain
Experiences no negative effects from Fundamentalist Politics {Modern religious movement}
May not use Free Market Economics

The one faction from SMAC that I've never played is the Believers, because I can't bring myself to sympathize with her, or be entertained by her philosophy the way that I am with Yang, the jolliest tyrant. Not that I'm anti-religion, but rather that Miriam's version seems particularly poisonous and lended too easily to have her be the villain. With the Sons of the Advent, I wanted to create a religious faction that was potentially sympathetic. The key point of reference is Dune, particularly the Fremen, who viewed their lifeless wasteland as their holy land. Similarly Brother Joaquin and his followers see Planet as a promised land that needs to be cared for, hence the Planet bonus. The Economy and Industry penalties seem self explanatory, and lead the Pilgrims well away from a Development based, and rather one based on survival and conquest (again, invoking Herbert's Fremen). This is further encouraged by giving them Impunity to Fundamentalism, which turns that from being one of the worst overall social options to maybe the strongest for this particular faction.

Initial thoughts was that it looks good and pretty balanced, but it does seem very similar to the Cult. Literally the same social modifiers, and a few different bonuses. Being able to run Fundamentalist is a good way to differentiate, but, yes. I'd bet this faction will be much closer to Cha than Mirriam in playstyle. +2 Planet is a very large modifier. I don't have much specific suggestions, because if you're fine with it being fairly Cultlike this should be a balanced faction, and if you want it to be not cultlike you'd have to find a different core bonus (maybe drawing resources from fungus? Psy Combat modifier?) and lower/remove the +2 Planet.

Also, I encourage you to store the factions on the wiki, I can talk you through it if you like but basically:

Type in the name of the page you want to create (example)
Copy/paste this:
{{FactionInfoBox
|Text=
|Economy=
|Interest=
|Commerce=
|Efficiency=
|Support=
|Talent=
|Morale=
|MoraleModifier=
|Police=
|Growth=
|Planet=
|Probe=
|ProbeCost=
|Industry=
|Research=
|TechCost=
|ResearchBonus=
|Immunity=
|Penalty=
|Robust=
|AntiIdeology=
|Ideology=
|Impunity=
|FreeTech=
|FreeTech2=
|FreeUnit=
|FreeFacility=
|PreqFreeFacility=
|FreeAbility=
|Offense=
|Defense=
|Psi=
|PopulationBonus=
|ExtraDrone=
|ExtraTalent=
|BonusTechs=
|StartingEnergy=
|FungNutrients=
|FungMinerals=
|FungEnergy=
|Hurry=
|Votes=
|NoDrone=
|Revolt=
|ShareTech=
|Infiltrator=
|Terraform=
|Comm=
|MindControl=
|Prototype=
|Progenitor=
|Aquatic=
|Fanatic=
|WormPolice=
|StealTech=
}}

in and fill out the bonuses, then save and you have a faction page. Clicking edit on other faction pages lets you see the template used to generate them.

For the text file, wrap it in

on the page Faction/textfile.txt

Having it on wiki means you have a public version history for your factions, and they're in the filing system.

[Sigma]

It's been so long since I've played SMAX (I've been sticking with vanilla SMAC for the most part) that I didn't realize that the Pilgrims have the exact same benefits as the Planet Cult, though for good reason-- there are only so many ways to interpret an ecologically conscious religious order. I'll leave them as they are for now and come back to them later once I have all of my factions worked out and I know where everyone stands. I could lower the Planet bonus to +1 and add Fungus Nutrients (or maybe Fungus Minerals or Energy? That would be interesting thematically), but overall the Planet bonus isn't going anywhere.

I'm open to changing the Facility and Drone penalties for the Technocrats, but I'd rather keep the Social Engineering where it is. The reason is that I want to avoid duplicating social benefits/penalties between factions in this set, and across the board negative morale fits better with House Satori than with the Technocrats. What about -2 Morale Modifier penalty?

EDIT: I think I'll change their Efficiency Immunity to a Robust, that way they don't get a free ride out of their social woes.

Overall I'd prefer if these factions were comparable in power to the original 7, but what's more important is that they are comparable to each other.

[Sigma]

Based on the suggestions I've received in this thread I've made some adjustments to the Technocrats, Pilgrims and Satori and I've attached them to this email along with the completed txt for the Colonial Authority.

For the Technocrats, I replaced their Growth penalty with -2 Morale, with the justification being that they rely on technology rather than training in battle. I also switched out their Drone penalty for a -2 Population modifier, due to their emphasis on scientific and digital infrastructure over civil infrastructure resulting in staggered base growth. The NN facility stays, though, since networking is in part what the Technocrats are all about.

For the Pilgrims I dropped their +2 Planet down to +1 and added a +1 Fungus Minerals bonus, though that brings the Pilgrims up to having seven social modifications, which is more than any of the original 7 SMAC factions (I'm averse to having my factions have significantly more complex social modifications from the originals). I may have to parse that down a bit; with their Planet rating dropped to +1, would it unbalance them if I dropped their -1 Industry penalty?

For Satori, I replaced their negative Morale benefit to a -2 Moral modifier, that way they don't take a permanent cut to all Probe actions forever.

The next faction in the set is going to be a faction of Industrialists that can read as either the [progeny of unmarried parents] child of Karl Marx and Ayn Rand or as Andrew Ryan in Space. Objectivist/Libetarian Bolsheviks-- an industrial collectivist meritocracy out of JarlWolf's nightmares.

[Sigma]

Is it considered bad form to post multiple times in a row here?

In any case, I've drafted up the mechanics for Faction #5, Apollo Industries.

(click to show/hide)

#BLURB
^  We were born into a world where those with the ability
to create were hamstrung by the narrow visions of those
who could not, and where the worker was denied his dues by the
social parasites who profited from his toil. But we have been
given a chance to forge a new society free of such inequities,
where the laborer who sweats under this foreign sun will
receive in full the fruits of his activity.
^
^        -- Architect Henry Roark,
^           "The Builder's Burden"

#DATALINKS1
^LEADER: {Henry Roark}
^BACKGROUND: {Union of American Commonwealths, Unity Construction Overseer}
^AGENDA: {Free Industrial Society}
^TECH: {Industrial Base}

#DATALINKS2
^+1 INDUSTRY:   {Well motivated work force}
^-1 EFFICIENCY:  {Internal economic competition}
^Free Supply Crawler at Planetfall
^Extra Drone per 4 Citizens {No social safety net}
^75% Hurry Costs {Fully staffed factories}
^{May not choose Green Economics}

Their leader is Henry Roark, the man who actually oversaw the construction of the Unity. His origin is the Union of American Commonwealths, consisting of the Northeastern states from Maine to Maryland, which serves as the counterpart to Miriam's Christian States of America.

The idea here, as stated, is inspired by Ayn Rand's objectivist writings (in fact the main character shares his last name with the protagonist of The Fountainhead), though Roark himself takes much more from Bioshock's Andrew Ryan. The industry bonus is pretty self-explanatory. Negative efficiency originates with the fact that, even though Roark and his followers espouse that their unregulated economy is better for society, what that boils down to is everyone is in it for themselves, and as such they need an actual cooperative political model (Democracy) in order for their economy to function properly. That in itself serves as a mild rebuke of Objectivism/Libertarianism, where their ultimate ideal of no government oversight is unrealistic and serves in the end to divide rather than unite.

I thought the free Supply Crawler would be an interesting benefit, since it would allow Roark to expand his industrial concerns more rapidly for his home base (which is what he'd want anyway). The Drone penalty and Hurry bonus are self explanatory. The inability to pick Green politics comes from Apollo's unwillingness to accept industrial regulations, forcing them either go with Free Market, and thus inheriting its polution and civil problems, or Planned and hurt their economy.

My immediate reservation is the faction name. Apollo Industries comes from the fact that Roark views himself as sort of an american Apollo, the greek sun god that everyone loves. The main problem is figuring out the faction noun. Apollo doesn't really work as a singular the way that Hive or University does, but the alternative is the adjective form made into a plural noun, Apollonians, which to me doesn't sound right either. Suggestions would be appreciated.