SE choices for AI - suggestions

[Petek]

If by "automate that process" you mean how to avoid pressing END TURN repeatedly, you can set a weighted object on the ENTER key. I've set up simulations that ran overnight using this technique.

[kyrub]

No need to wait all night.
The best way is to choose a faction you don't want to watch.

Start a game.
Go to Menu->Scenario->Eliminate
Choose your faction.
Switch off all notifications you don't want to see.
Now use "Y" key to hide everything.
Keep clicking Enter or End of turn.
If you want to have a look, press "Y", then "E" to study AI social engineering etc.

In 5 minutes, the game's done.

[kraze]

There's an issue with AI about as major and game-affecting as crawlers but I think there are more chances of you fixing it.

Basically when you gather your forces next to an AI base to attack it and end your turn - the AI never counter-attacks (unless it has those weak artillery units and even then it attacks only with them) so next turn you are free to attack the base with all your troops/get additional troops in there.

This makes fighting AI too easy once you have strong enough forces - since when it gathers its units near your base you don't give AI any chance.
Even if AI has units with 13 attack and your units have 5 or less defense - it never attacks with them from inside the base, considering that often they have like 1-5 defense themselves so they aren't good defenders.

Is it possible for you to make AI attack gathered units from inside a base when it thinks it has enough power to do so (like some kind of city defender power X vs. enemy power condition Y where X and Y are  balanced with taking into account enemy striking back next turn)?



Also with the current patch AI seems to ignore building space units and also doesn't seem to use transports to cross the sea at all. Granted it's been a while since I've played the game last time but I'm fairly certain AI colonized overseas locations at least even if it didn't do invasions.

[Petek]

No need to wait all night.
The best way is to choose a faction you don't want to watch.

Start a game.
Go to Menu->Scenario->Eliminate
Choose your faction.
Switch off all notifications you don't want to see.
Now use "Y" key to hide everything.
Keep clicking Enter or End of turn.
If you want to have a look, press "Y", then "E" to study AI social engineering etc.

In 5 minutes, the game's done.

I'll have to try that. Thanks!

[Buster's Uncle]

Welcome to AC2, krase!  How did you find us?

[kyrub]

Is it possible for you to make AI attack gathered units from inside a base when it thinks it has enough power to do so (like some kind of city defender power X vs. enemy power condition Y where X and Y are  balanced with taking into account enemy striking back next turn)?

Good idea, Kraze.
Don't know when it will be possible to improve unit movement. This is very far from us now. Not impossible, I'm rather optimistic, but far.

Also with the current patch AI seems to ignore building space units and also doesn't seem to use transports to cross the sea at all. Granted it's been a while since I've played the game last time but I'm fairly certain AI colonized overseas locations at least even if it didn't do invasions.

AI colonizes overseas even with the patch. I have witnessed it myself. Please, beware from making quick judgments based upon one game or one segment of a game. We need more evidence, more refined notions. You may have found a flaw in the patch, but we need more details, better understanding of the conditions under which something works / does not work. - Thanks!

[Kilkakon]

I can confirm that the unkyrubed (scient) AI can colonise and invade. I've seen both in LE.

[kraze]

Let me clarify on my observations.

I did a full runthrough of SMAC at a Librarian difficulty with the current patch and the map was generated in such way that me and 2 other factions ended up being divided from the other 4 by the sea (think 2 big continents, 1st had 3 factions, 2nd had 4). For the following 200 years no faction from another continent managed to come into a contact with any of "home" factions up until Zakharov built an Empath Guild.

I also was the only faction that was building/launching space stuff. And when I revealed the map with the satellite (300 years into the game) there were a lot of big uncolonized islands and zero overseas colonies.

I also had wars with overseas factions but they never tried to invade me.

It's only by the very end (~2450) that I saw factions building sea colonies and one even captured a base overseas.

I certainly do not remember them ignoring sea stuff so hard in vanilla version. And I'm also certain they were building satellites too.


It's just what I experienced.

[kyrub]

Thanks for the info, kraze.
I am seeing a lot of naval bases, orbital stuff, overseas expansion in my testgames.  That is why I was surprised.
The thing done to AI in naval section are:
- serious increase of interest for naval formers, even if no naval bases are built
- increse in early naval base expansion (contrary to your findings)
- and lately, on request of one player, decrease of plus factor for naval transports per colony

As far as I see, only the last one could really have done some harm to AI in your game (but I may be mistaken).
Could you please post your basic save (2101)? I would like to rerun the game. Also: did you use "small lands, huge world" setting?

[kraze]

I have only 2109 year save from that game unfortunately
But I also included the final save for you to compare

It also appears that AI was building bases on other continents only because factions made sea levels drop through voting enough to make that sea passable.

http://www.mediafire.com/?nzv15y8ox8axgaz

Check the satellite count too.

I've used GoG's version of SMAC + your jan 13 patch.

Also: did you use "small lands, huge world" setting?

Nope. Huge world, minimum sea coverage.

[kyrub]

I have only 2109 year save from that game unfortunately
But I also included the final save for you to compare

Got it. Will run a few watch-games on it tonight, with Vanilla and the patch.
Thanks a lot.

[Kirov]

Since I am going away for a few weeks, I cooked a quick test build for SMAC AI (requires SMAC only for now, sorry). SMAC_444_l version in the Downloads.
The highlight is the correction of Support <=> Police mismatch in AI social engineering. You'll find the rest in the short notes to the patch.

I started one game some time ago with that new patch to check for SE behaviour, however I’m afraid I’m too busy these days to play it off, so I switched to watch AI as Petek prescribed. I started with time warp 2161-2185 then handed over to AI until 2220.

First let me ask about the things I don't understand. What does the following mean in your patch description?

d  close base and fungus love from 70
e   unit_abilities_8
g   formers chance

Ok, now the game itself:

I started in 2161 as PK. The starting SE for the AI was:

Deirdre:    Demo/-/-           (although she had access to Green, and also PS and Fundie)
Hive:       -/Planned/-         (access to PS, Wealth, FM)
Zak:         Demo/FM/-        (access to Planned, Power)
Morgan:   Demo/-/Wealth (access to FM)
Sparta:    -/FM/-                 (access to Planned)
Miriam: -/Planned/-           (access to FM, Wealth)

There were no Vendettas at that moment. All in all, the AI was quite peaceful.

In 2185 SE was:

Deirdre:    Demo/-/Wealth      (access to PS, Fundie, Planned, Green, Power)
Hive:       PS/Planned/-           (access to FM, Wealth) 1 Vendetta
Zak:         Demo/FM/-             (access to PS, Planned, Power, Wealth)
Morgan:   Demo/FM/Wealth   (access to PS, Power)
Sparta:    PS/FM/-                   (access to Planned)
Miriam: -/Planned/-                (access to Demo, FM, Wealth) 1 Vendetta.

Then I watched AI playing until 2220:
Deirdre:    Demo/-/Power             (access to PS, Fundie, Planned, Green, Know, Wealth) 1 Vendetta
Hive:       PS/Planned/Wealth       (access to FM, Know) 4 Vendettas
Zak:         Demo/Planned/Know    (access to PS, FM, Power, Wealth) 2 V
Morgan:   Demo/-/Wealth            (access to PS, FM, Power, Know) 2 V
Sparta:    Fundie/Planned/-          (access to PS, Demo, FM, Power, Know) 1 V
Miriam: -/Planned/-                       (access to PS, Demo, FM, Wealth) 2 V
Lal: Demo/Planned/Power            (access to Fundie, FM, Know, Wealth) 4 V

All in all, I see big improvement in:

1) not sticking to preferred SE at all costs
2) use of Wealth by Morgan and Hive, really congrats guys and good for you
3) smarter use of FM (i.e. AI uses it but switches off under Vendetta)

However, I still think that Wealth is under- and Power is overused. Can Power be made as something of last resort? Or barring that, something which is used only if >95% bases build combat units?

Also, Deirdre doesn’t use any economics now at all (I say both Planned and Green are better than nothing in the long run), Miriam could use Wealth and maybe Demo if not war.

Is there any way we can relate it to those five magical factors you mentioned? Wealth is just as good for aggressive factions, I don't know how to explain it to the AI...

Which reminds me - what's the difference between aggressivity and power? (you mentioned them along with growth, eco and commerce).

[Kilkakon]

Based off those findings, I would prefer them having their preferred "agenda" SE choice over the basic one, if the others weren't an improvement.

So Best > Agenda > Simple?

Seems not bad though, just the lack of agenda of Deirdre/Miriam/Morgan seems a little off, although Morgan does have 2 wars going so fair enough there.

[Kirov]

So Best > Agenda > Simple?

This seems like a good idea to me, I think it can be related somehow to what kyrub mentioned earlier, with the agenda SE being preferred, but other options are still used.

I agree Deirdre should run Green over nothing, but I'm not so convinced that I want to watch Miriam trying to bash coconuts with sticks as she runs Fundie. I've seen that a lot in my life and I just can't help but think of her as a complete retard. As far as Morgan and FM is concerned - if AI can't manage pacifism drones, then the simplest rule is to give up FM when at war, otherwise the FM-er in question is bound to suffer a lot.

[Yitzi]

I agree Deirdre should run Green over nothing, but I'm not so convinced that I want to watch Miriam trying to bash coconuts with sticks as she runs Fundie.

Maybe instead it would make more sense to teach her to probe tech.