What does the Brexit vote mean?

[Kirov]

I think all your mention of 2008 is entirely too kind to the Cheney Bund.  There's where the trouble started - IF you want to not provoke the know-nothings by tracing it all the way back to the Reagan movement...

Three times Amen. Up until 2008 I believed that despite obvious shortcomings, "it will all turn out ok in the end", and many trends concerning major stuff like global poverty, democratic principles etc. looked very promising. But then the crap hit the fan and of course the seeds had been sown much earlier, by the Reagan-Thatcher duo. I wanted to believe so much that the increasing wealth gap and social alienation would be alleviated by the technological progress... I was wrong. And the evidence was there all along. I didn't listen!

! No longer available

[Buster's Uncle]

The information-bubble problem of our wonderful modern mass communications via the magic TV calculating device we talk over seems obvious now - not so much even ten years ago.  Rupert Murdock's cryptofascist/trash empire was just the opening wedge.  It's too easy for stupid people to credulously find the pseudo-facts they want to feel affirmed in their wishful thinking.

-And it's a REALLY SERIOUS PROBLEM that I've heard absolutely no ideas for fixing, even in blue-sky theory, let alone that might actually work.  It's going to take some sort of "don't be a sucker" social movement, I think - or the destruction of the innerwebs, which is more likely than the social movement.

[Rusty Edge]

But it goes further than the internet. It's talk radio, Satellite radio, and cable TV. You can select your own reality. Granted, some things like Bloomberg,  FOX and CNN are on all of those.

[Buster's Uncle]

Last bit does not compute.

First three sentences, yes of course.

[Dale]

I get the feeling Kirov is one of those who won't accept democracy and that a majority believe it will be better to leave EU.

What DrazharLn said. The democratic process is all about 'informed decisions', and the Brexit was precisely the opposite of that. Read more about the blatantly false statement about GBP 350 million sent to the EU daily, and how they backpedalled on the promise to give it to the Health Service right there and then at 6 AM (!) after the voting night. Or about the role of Boris Johnson in all of this, who never actually wanted to Leave, but dreamt about improving his position in the Tory party. For that matter, the same goes for Cameron. Read about prominent Brexiteers using the word 'expert' as derogatory (!!) because how dare the economists speak about economy. And how they promised access to single market without free flow of people, which is another outrageous lie and could never happen. Or find out more about Murdoch's tabloids, which often read like Der Sturmer and Volkisher Beobachter. I mean, I understand immigration concerns - inflow of people is good for your country long-term, but it's still a social challenge to be dealt with - but there are immigration concerns and then there is rabies. Guess which one was the way of Daily Mail.

The Brexit was about as democratic as the Salem incident - the majority sure got its way, but when the insanity is over, everyone involved is in for a massive hangover.

But at the end of the day, it's democracy.  You should accept the choice of the majority.... ill informed or otherwise.

Wasn't it Churchill, a Brit, who summed up democracy perfectly?

The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter. - Winston Churchill

[Rusty Edge]

Last bit does not compute.

First three sentences, yes of course.

FOX and the other news networks mentioned are available on multiple, if not all mediums. AM talk radio networks feature their shows such as Hannity, Sirius XM it's channel 114, ( I think), and of course cable TV on your local FOX affiliate. So even "the destruction of the innerwebs" wouldn't solve the problem.

[Buster's Uncle]

I don't have a sky-high opinion of Bloomberg, and CNN is only TV news, but that's lumping in two crappy news channels that actually try to be fair with the propaganda channel that doesn't and brazenly bald-faced lies about it.

[Valka]

But at the end of the day, it's democracy.  You should accept the choice of the majority.... ill informed or otherwise.

No. There are times when the majority is completely out to lunch on some issues. There's already an argument over at CFC where one person is insisting that the majority opinion is ALWAYS the "moral" position... because it's the majority.

As I said to him, if I happened to be wearing my anthropologist's hat, I'd have to agree with him. But I'm wearing my Valka D'Ur hat (my CFC username) and when I think of all the times throughout history when the majority opinions were anything but moral (what we consider moral), I just can't agree with him.

[Buster's Uncle]

It's a tricky issue - people in general are freakin' idiots and gullible to the suasions of bosses and other evil men, see the last 37 years of the Republican party, but if a democracy doesn't treat Democracy itself with almost religious reverence --- dang, that's a serious categorical error that undermines the bedrock the entire nation rests upon.

[Dale]

Totally agree BUncle.

That's gotta be almost a first right?

A democracy MUST respect being a democracy or it fails to be a democracy anymore.  Like I said..... ill informed or not.

[Dale]

But at the end of the day, it's democracy.  You should accept the choice of the majority.... ill informed or otherwise.

No. There are times when the majority is completely out to lunch on some issues. There's already an argument over at CFC where one person is insisting that the majority opinion is ALWAYS the "moral" position... because it's the majority.

As I said to him, if I happened to be wearing my anthropologist's hat, I'd have to agree with him. But I'm wearing my Valka D'Ur hat (my CFC username) and when I think of all the times throughout history when the majority opinions were anything but moral (what we consider moral), I just can't agree with him.

Your argument is subjective.  That's what YOU believe.  But as much as you disagree, some people believe differently.  You cannot uphold YOUR beliefs, without upholding the beliefs of others.

[Buster's Uncle]

Dale, I'm going to allow that post because Valka is an arguer and can take it - but you both heat up fast in a dispute, so careful on thin ice, okay, guys?  I declare that tapping out if you feel like it is not an admission of defeat, and try not to escalate the bluntness...



And I dunno - I tend to think Leave is a terrible idea and ought to be prevented somehow --- but making a big stink until they have another referendum and winning this time is the appropriate response to the crap outcome on a referendum - in a democracy...  You end up causing infinite problems turning the system topsy because Democracy has been stupid, it still being less-worst than all the other systems that have been tried...

[Dale]

And I dunno - I tend to think Leave is a terrible idea and ought to be prevented somehow --- but making a big stink until they have another referendum and winning this time is the appropriate response to the crap outcome on a referendum - in a democracy...  You end up causing infinite problems turning the system topsy because Democracy has been stupid, it still being less-worst than all the other systems that have been tried...

Again subjective.  17,410,742 Britains, 51.9% of them, don't agree with you and voted Leave.

Would you still say the same thing, "but making a big stink until they have another referendum and winning this time is the appropriate response to the crap outcome on a referendum" if the result was to your liking?

I say you would not.  In fact, I bet you would be playing the "it's a democracy, suck it up guys!" card.  You cannot uphold YOUR beliefs without upholding the beliefs of others.

[Valka]

But at the end of the day, it's democracy.  You should accept the choice of the majority.... ill informed or otherwise.

No. There are times when the majority is completely out to lunch on some issues. There's already an argument over at CFC where one person is insisting that the majority opinion is ALWAYS the "moral" position... because it's the majority.

As I said to him, if I happened to be wearing my anthropologist's hat, I'd have to agree with him. But I'm wearing my Valka D'Ur hat (my CFC username) and when I think of all the times throughout history when the majority opinions were anything but moral (what we consider moral), I just can't agree with him.

Your argument is subjective.  That's what YOU believe.  But as much as you disagree, some people believe differently.  You cannot uphold YOUR beliefs, without upholding the beliefs of others.

How about you mosey on over to CFC and read the threads in question before offering an evaluation of my arguments there?

There is no way in hell that I'm going to uphold the beliefs of others if they're going to lead to basic rights being taken away from people.

Keep in mind that those threads involve discussions pertaining to abortion and religion. Also keep in mind that, as it says below my name, I argue from the POV of what's going on in Canada. There are some things that are US-centric that are going to fly right past me because I either don't hear about it or it's not relevant to my situation.

The Brexit issue is relevant in that it's a lesson in being careful what you wish for. We've had numerous referendums here connected with the Quebec separation and "distinct society status" thing they pushed for so long. The one I was allowed to vote in happened back in the 1990s, and one of the 5 parts of the Charlottetown Accord involved granting distinct society status to Quebec. Since I don't believe that it's right that one province should be more equal than the others, I voted "No"... even though another part of the Accord dealt with aboriginal self-government, which is something I was in favor of.

These votes involve a great deal of thought (or should) and a voter has to decide at what point they might be willing to hold their nose and choose the least worst of a lot of bad choices. I suspect that's what some of the people in the UK did, and now they're actually beginning to realize that they should have drawn a different line for holding their noses.

[Dale]

I've learnt the hard way never try to argue with the folks at cfc, and especially topics like those. I'd rather head butt the wall.

But you missed my point. I'll say it another way.

A democracy stops being a democracy when you fail to uphold the beliefs of the majority, even if they are repugnant to you. A [poop] democracy is still a million times better than totalitarianism, such as the "socialist utopia" the extreme left dreams of.

In terms of Brexit, I'm sure some people are exaggerating in their minds eye the vocal minority and that a re-vote would still result in Leave. In votes like this, they are dominated by a strong silent mass.