Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]

[Sigma]

Yes, they built 15 IoDs (5 dead). They're still making a fair number of conventionals.. but enough native to live by. Maybe upping the Psi bonus would be worthwhile, see if the AI responds to that.

hmm.. my main hesitance is we've already got one somewhat obscure god in the name of a faction, two seems a bit repetitive? I also quite like Harvesters, and Praxis gets across their core philosophy very well. And unlike the Triton Monarchy, I can't really see these guys looking back to ancient myths to decide their faction name.

Fair point, let's go with that for now.

Edit: Sigma, fancy popping by irc sometime in the next hour or so? http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?spage=Chat say ete in the channel to ping me.

I'll be out all night. Maybe tomorrow?

[Buster's Uncle]

See if this upgrade suits better:

[ete]

Edit: Sigma, fancy popping by irc sometime in the next hour or so? http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?spage=Chat say ete in the channel to ping me.

I'll be out all night. Maybe tomorrow?

Sure, probably around the same time/any time I'm on here?

@BU: Looks good.

[Buster's Uncle]

Thinking about graphics for the Covenant..

Not bad - could use a background, and fortunately, would be easy to cut out of the white.

[ete]

mhm, though I'm not certain we won't find something better, and Sigma's done most of the covenant so I'm happy to let him pick the leaderhead, so don't dive into it just yet.

[Buster's Uncle]

Okydoke.




A word about colors, and what the artist is up against.  I went to a little trouble to do a shaded version to illustrate.  Above is full-color, not indexed.

Run that through the SMACX palette, and you get this:



Ruins the effect a little, don't it?  It's not just the limited light-dark choices either; it can't decide, as it gets darker, whether it's greenish-yellow or orange/brownish-yellow.

(On faces, it frequently shifts abruptly to a light blue on the highlights - which isn't always a bad thing, but still.)

[ete]

Yep, I can see the restrictions are pretty annoying. I'm sure you're very much looking forward to being able to use modern graphics.

[Sigma]

Edit: Sigma, fancy popping by irc sometime in the next hour or so? http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?spage=Chat say ete in the channel to ping me.

I'll be out all night. Maybe tomorrow?

Sure, probably around the same time/any time I'm on here?

@BU: Looks good.

I should be online all day today.

And I was thinking about the Monarchs and I think my mind has turned around on the Leadership. Giving him some ridiculous Greek name kind of mutes the group's ideological edge-- that this isn't some would-be European aristocracy arising, it's a reactionary autocracy arising from the most antiautocrat nation in the world.

All hail King Colton I.

[ete]

Had a good chat with Sigma on IRC, some relevant parts with the outline for faction #7

(click to show/hide)

7:52:37 PM   Sigma  So so far we have five Ocean factions, yes? Covenant, Armada, Praxics, Traders and Monarchs, yes?
7:53:03 PM   ete  i have six
7:53:06 PM   ete  seasteaders
7:53:11 PM   Sigma  Oh yeah, forgot
7:53:17 PM   ete  one to go
7:53:20 PM   Sigma  How could I forget the most powerful ones in the batch
7:53:24 PM   ete  :p
7:53:31 PM   ete  i'm going to nerf them
7:53:33 PM   Sigma  It's real weird that a faction with stats like that can do so well
7:53:46 PM   ete  yep
7:53:47 PM   Sigma  Like, there's nothing outrageously unbalanced about them
7:53:50 PM   ete  HQs are amazing
7:54:09 PM   ete  especially at sea
7:54:19 PM   Sigma  Oh, that would do the trick. So with HQs in every base, then the penalty for Inefficiency is Drones, yes?
7:54:47 PM   ete  yes, but with tiny bases and HQ suppressing one drone anyway
7:54:50 PM   ete  they're fine
7:55:41 PM   ete  balancing auto-HQ factions is.. very hard
7:55:42 PM   Sigma  Makes sense. Do you have them at Pop 3 or 4?
7:55:53 PM   ete  4 in the text file
7:55:59 PM   Sigma  Ha
7:56:01 PM   ete  so 3 default max pop
7:56:06 PM   Sigma  so if they get the Planetary Transit system
7:56:10 PM   ete  yup
7:56:14 PM   Sigma  Hilarious
7:56:17 PM   ete  they also seem to rush fro hab complexes
7:56:22 PM   ete  which is.. correct
7:56:25 PM   ete  but also OP
7:56:34 PM   Sigma  Well the AI is smart enough to figure that out as well
7:56:43 PM   ete  yea.
7:56:54 PM   ete  oh how i wish the AI was easily scriptable
7:56:57 PM   Sigma  You know what I really wish Yitzi or someone would figure out
7:57:06 PM   Sigma  Like, really wish
7:57:14 PM   ete  mm?
7:57:27 PM   ete  SMAX with open AI, so you could like, reprogram your governors
7:57:32 PM   ete  oh that would be so good
7:57:38 PM   Sigma  I really wish that they could figure out a way to pull a small amount of AI behavior into the .txt, enough that editors could program Factions like governors
7:57:42 PM   Sigma  Pretty much, yeah
7:57:55 PM   ete  that does exist, but only in limited forms
7:58:00 PM   Sigma  Like a line of 0000000s where each bit is a specifc flag
7:58:05 PM   ete  yea.
7:58:10 PM   Sigma  So 10000000 is "likes to build natives"
7:58:21 PM   ete  that would be awesome
7:58:46 PM   Sigma  0100000 is "likes to commit atrocities"
7:58:57 PM   ete  the covenant are hilarious
7:59:09 PM   ete  they gas everyone every game and usually get nuked in return
7:59:24 PM   Sigma  At least they aren't boring!
7:59:29 PM   ete  indeed!
7:59:34 PM   Sigma  Honestly that sounds pretty much like what I imagine the faction would do
7:59:39 PM   ete  yup
7:59:41 PM   Sigma  Let's never ever take away their gas pods
7:59:45 PM   ete  yea
7:59:52 PM   ete  they were so bland before
7:59:57 PM   ete  and now they are massively not
8:00:09 PM   ete  in an extremely appropriate way
8:00:19 PM   Sigma  One of their diplo lines is "He spends his time brewing new chemical weapons and other atrocities to inflict upon his imagined "heretics"."
8:00:26 PM   ete 
8:00:40 PM   ete  'tis fun
8:00:48 PM   ete  do you have any ideas for faction #7?
8:00:59 PM   Sigma  Been thinking about it
8:01:02 PM   ete  mhm?
8:01:10 PM   Sigma  Oh before that
8:01:13 PM   ete  ok
8:01:14 PM   Sigma  For the Praxics
8:01:20 PM   ete  yup
8:01:27 PM   Sigma  How about "The Praxis Initiative"
8:01:40 PM   Sigma  Praxis Harvesters doesn't really flow
8:01:42 PM   ete  hmmm
8:01:55 PM   ete  initiative sounds nicer, but is less descriptive
8:02:06 PM   Sigma  Yeah that's the problem
8:02:17 PM   Sigma  So for #7, we haven't used +Research yet
8:02:24 PM   ete  i do really like harvisters=harvisting fungus
8:02:29 PM   ete  yup
8:02:34 PM   Sigma  Yes I like that as well.
8:03:00 PM   ete  it's true
8:03:02 PM   Sigma  So I reckon they should be a scientific organization
8:03:43 PM   ete  hm, perhaps
8:03:47 PM   Sigma  throwing this out there: "The Atlantis Academy"
8:03:59 PM   Sigma  Problem 1:
8:04:00 PM   ete  my thoughts on starting points
8:04:06 PM   Sigma  Already a faction with A in their name
8:04:32 PM   ete  they should either be a new and interesting game mechanic at their core, or a new and interesting political ideology
8:04:42 PM   ete  ideally both, but one is enough
8:04:45 PM   Sigma  Or both, obviously.
8:05:24 PM   Sigma  Nobody has -Police yet, right?
8:05:34 PM   ete  research has been done in loads of different forms, so unless you have a new way to do it, i'd say we need something cool and new from ideology
8:05:39 PM   Sigma  Or wait, did we want to give that to the Traders
8:05:52 PM   Sigma  I think we did want to give it to them
8:05:55 PM   ete  -Probe
8:06:03 PM   ete  i have currently
8:06:37 PM   Sigma  Wasn't it -Probe -Growth? I don't feel like -Probe sufficiency offsets +Econ
8:06:54 PM   ete   TECH, Indust, TECH, DocFlex, FREEABIL, 7, FREEABIL, 19, FREEABIL, 21, SOCIAL, +ECONOMY, SOCIAL, -PROBE, AQUATIC, 0
8:07:12 PM   ete  should probably add -Growth
8:07:27 PM   ete  they are pretty strong in my test games
8:07:31 PM   ete  always near top
8:08:08 PM   ete  oh, i had growth in datalinks
8:08:12 PM   ete  just not bonus line
8:08:14 PM   ete  change made
8:08:30 PM   Sigma  do you think their FreeAbils are really contributing to that? Or is it all in the +Econ coupled with Aquatic?
8:08:55 PM   ete  all +Econ
8:09:04 PM   ete  the abils are almost useless
8:09:22 PM   ete  flavorful, but useless
8:09:30 PM   Sigma  And fun for players, maybe!
8:09:33 PM   ete  yup
8:09:48 PM   ete  i don;t know if the heavy transport even works
8:10:01 PM   ete  you may need to get the tech to activate
8:10:04 PM   ete  which is impossible
8:10:29 PM   ete  when yitzi does the virtual techs thing maybe
8:11:44 PM   Sigma  So we have +Research remaining, and we also have +Probe, +Effic
8:12:34 PM   Sigma  And for penalties we have -Police, -Industry...
8:13:06 PM   ete  yup
8:13:18 PM   ete  though i'm not super worried about avoiding reusing things
8:13:28 PM   ete  so long as the factions play differently enough, i'm happy
8:14:45 PM   Sigma  Fair enough. I like to avoid that where possible but that's not always the best way to go
8:15:08 PM   Sigma  Since these factions are already mechanically extreme enough to play totally differently
8:16:21 PM   ete  mhm
8:16:40 PM   ete  they are mostly pretty unusual
8:16:45 PM   Sigma  +Res +Effic should be taken off the table because it's too similar to many other factions I'd say
8:16:49 PM   ete  we may have to tone them down a bit for balance
8:17:13 PM   Sigma  The Covenant kills half the planet then gets nuked into oblivion. Seems balanced to me!
8:17:30 PM   ete  heh, though they do never do well lategame
8:17:32 PM   ete  so far
8:17:47 PM   Sigma  Do they ever make it to the endgame?
8:17:48 PM   ete  everyone hates them too much
8:18:02 PM   ete  as far as i;ve taken games, yes
8:18:17 PM   ete  but i've stopped by 2280 or so most games
8:18:36 PM   ete  have had other things i wanted to fix
8:18:59 PM   ete  seastead also has HQs which is mechanically similar to +effic
8:19:09 PM   ete  so yea, let's avoid that
8:19:54 PM   ete  the monarchs are really strange
8:19:59 PM   ete  in the AIs hands
8:20:14 PM   Sigma  Generally I find it hard to characterize a faction around +Effic without making them robots (like the Technocrats), so that pretty much leaves +Res +Prbe
8:20:21 PM   Sigma  So they are smart and sneaky
8:20:22 PM   ete  they fight reasonably well, but are forced into FM super early just to avoid running out of energy
8:20:29 PM   Sigma  I bet
8:20:44 PM   Sigma  so that kills their ability to field a military without sending the homefront into chaos
8:21:05 PM   ete  and because of -effic -research, they take FOREVER to get Power or Wealth
8:21:25 PM   ete  but when they do get Power, they're amazing
8:21:37 PM   ete  and start killing people
8:21:52 PM   ete  also i think the AI cheats energy badly
8:22:04 PM   ete  i've seen them sit at -60 eng/turn for decades
8:22:19 PM   ete  apparently not caring
8:22:31 PM   ete  even under FM
8:22:41 PM   Sigma  Much like a real monarchy I suppose
8:22:45 PM   ete  heh
8:22:56 PM   ete  i'm thinking of giving them some boost
8:22:59 PM   Sigma  Let the peasants eat genetically engineered fungal cake
8:23:04 PM   ete  lol
8:23:18 PM   ete  anyway, yes
8:23:25 PM   ete  +res
8:23:30 PM   ete  +probe
8:23:32 PM   ete  hmm
8:23:42 PM   Sigma  Here's an idea
8:24:07 PM   ete  techshare+techsteal?
8:24:21 PM   Sigma  Thematically
8:24:50 PM   Sigma  Medieval Arabia on the Ocean
8:25:18 PM   ete  hmm
8:25:31 PM   ete  what kind of political structure would that have?
8:26:12 PM   Sigma  One sec
8:31:44 PM   Sigma  Kay back
8:33:04 PM   ete  hi
8:33:06 PM   Sigma  I picture them having an oligarchic leadership, leaning towards Democracy over Police State
8:33:14 PM   ete  hm
8:34:01 PM   Sigma  Aversion: Fundamentalist, as they wish to avoid the mistakes of old earth, one of which is the suppression of scientific thought
8:34:03 PM   ete  i could kinda see it being a thing, but i can't imagine a leader making an impassioned speech to draw people in
8:34:18 PM   ete  okay, now i see a bit more
8:34:49 PM   ete  hmm
8:35:22 PM   ete  did old earth have much suppression of scientific thought?
8:35:33 PM   ete  they had human rights and free speech problems
8:35:45 PM   ete  but i never got the idea that science was significantly slowed
8:37:11 PM   Sigma  Keep in mind, SMAC was made like fifteen years ago, the socio-political landscape has shifted significantly since then.
8:37:51 PM   Sigma  The middle-east now bares hardly any resemblence to what it did back then, when a lot less focus was being put upon what's happening there
8:39:10 PM   ete  hm..
8:39:27 PM   ete  it's not a bad idea
8:39:37 PM   Sigma  Plus you can assume, I suppose, from the make-up of the original factions that the middle-east was marginalized by the time of the unity mission
8:39:51 PM   ete  my thinking is mostly.. it's not a strong+interesting+new political ideology
8:40:09 PM   ete  and researcher is a game mechanic that's been done many times
8:40:18 PM   ete  twice in official factions
8:40:37 PM   Sigma  True, true, and one that doesn't really lend itself to darkside/lightside
8:40:50 PM   ete  lal is from the middle east, no?
8:40:52 PM   Sigma  Zahkarov is a monster, but you only get that from Tech and Project blurbs, not from faction interactions
8:40:56 PM   Sigma  Lal is from India
8:41:01 PM   ete  ahh
8:41:15 PM   ete  i thought he was further west
8:41:21 PM   ete  for some reason
8:41:51 PM   Sigma  Of the original 7, five are Eastern-- Zak, Lal and Yang, and they represent the three largest and most powerful nations in Asia.
8:41:58 PM   Sigma  Er I meant to say 3
8:42:02 PM   ete  right
8:42:42 PM   ete  Zak is about open research
8:43:07 PM   Sigma  Right
8:43:08 PM   ete  we could do one with the focus "Knowledge in the wrong hands is dangerous"
8:43:21 PM   ete  fits with +Probe
8:43:50 PM   Sigma  If we end up doing +Res, +Probe then you have the notion of a scientific society with a bright facade that hides an underworld of theft and assassination
8:43:58 PM   Sigma  The middle east created the Assassins, afterall
8:45:12 PM   ete  hm, that works
8:45:21 PM   Sigma  If we hit them with -Industry, then they have a problem-- they lack the ability to transform their knowledge into practical things
8:45:30 PM   Sigma  The opposite of the Praxics, in a sense
8:45:34 PM   ete  i like that
8:46:23 PM   Sigma  They're also a high ideology faction like the Monarchs, which is meant to mask the fundamental issues with their society
8:46:37 PM   ete  yup
8:46:47 PM   ete  ooo
8:46:58 PM   ete  IMPUNITY, Knowledge
8:47:07 PM   Sigma  Colton talks a big game about bringing stability, reason and traditional values to the world but that's just an excuse for despotism
8:47:11 PM   Sigma  Definitely
8:47:13 PM   ete  they guard their knowledge carefully
8:47:16 PM   Sigma  Actually that's clever
8:47:42 PM   Sigma  They are immune to Knowledge's weaknesses, but they also can't boost their Probe strength because they are forbidden from Fundamentalism
8:47:52 PM   ete  we could even slightly redesign the Traders to have Impunity Wealth
8:47:59 PM   ete  and have that as a little theme in the set
8:48:13 PM   ete  one impunity for each value
8:48:49 PM   Sigma  So these guys talk about ushering in a golden age for humanity on glittering seas, but what do they do? They horde knowledge and steal from and kill those who get in their way
8:48:51 PM   ete  that makes it easier to balance than +1 Econ
8:49:02 PM   ete  yup
8:49:22 PM   Sigma  and when mush comes to shove, can they really put their knowledge to good use in the face of the Monarchs or the Covenant?
8:49:30 PM   Sigma  *push comes to shove
8:49:53 PM   ete  they also talk of the dangers of certain technologies being used against the goals of humanity
8:50:07 PM   ete  but there's a background of "but we get to use it"
8:50:27 PM   Sigma  Precisely. Zak's ideology tainted by cyncism and greed
8:50:28 PM   ete  i like where this is going
8:50:36 PM   Sigma  Instead of by an utter lack of morality and ethics
8:50:40 PM   ete  yup
8:50:56 PM   ete  -1 Indust is a major penalty
8:51:03 PM   ete  but we probably want something else minor
8:51:14 PM   ete  especially if we end up giving them talents, which kinda fits
8:51:18 PM   Sigma  Riiight
8:51:44 PM   Sigma  Just out of curiousity, do Psi modifiers work as penalties too?
8:52:00 PM   ete  yes
8:52:04 PM   ete  according to the guide
8:52:20 PM   ete  need a -
8:52:38 PM   Sigma  So these guys do not have a strong industrial base
8:52:43 PM   ete  yup
8:52:59 PM   Sigma  They're fine at fighting-- their problem is their ability to produce the soldiers that they need
8:53:05 PM   ete  yup
8:53:33 PM   Sigma  They'd be polarizing-- people would either be head over heels for their ideology, or they wouldn't trust them at all
8:53:55 PM   ete  true, but many are like that
8:53:57 PM   Sigma  Does Commerce,#, work as a penalty too?
8:54:30 PM   Sigma  True enough
8:54:47 PM   ete  no
8:54:57 PM   ete  according to the guide
8:55:02 PM   ete  but it could be wrong
8:55:11 PM   ete  it's not certain
8:55:23 PM   ete  "This rule gives a bonus to energy received from treaties, pacts, and loans. For example, COMMERCE, 1, gives a +1 bonus to commerce from treaties, pacts and loans. As far as I know, setting this to a negative number does not give a penalty to energy gained from treaties and pacts. Also, the bonus and penalty is controlled in the parameter."
8:55:32 PM   ete  http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Faction.txt_editing_guide#Faction_rules
8:55:48 PM   ete  i often just look through this to get ideas for factions
8:55:55 PM   Sigma  Hmm kay, was thinking maybe it could act as a mechanic for other factions being hesitant to trade with them
8:56:20 PM   ete  i don't know if that's doable
8:56:39 PM   Sigma  Yeah
8:57:01 PM   ete  i kinda like this about SMAX faction creation
8:57:06 PM   ete  you have a toolbox
8:57:13 PM   ete  and have to figure out how to do what you want
8:57:28 PM   ete  but although there's a lot of options, there's loads that you can't do
8:57:40 PM   ete  it's a puzzle, and satisfying when you get it to work
8:58:14 PM   ete  hurry penalty?
8:58:29 PM   Sigma  That would work
8:58:38 PM   ete  smallish, because they have a lot of checks to perform to prevent leaks
8:58:46 PM   ete  accelerating things is hard
8:58:49 PM   Sigma  Exactly
8:59:12 PM   ete  any ideas for name?
8:59:50 PM   Sigma  Let me think about that
9:03:23 PM   Sigma  Something with Caliphate in it, perhaps
9:03:40 PM   ete  mhm
9:03:48 PM   Sigma  Traditionally that has islamic connotations, but it really just means "Successor"
9:05:21 PM   ete  right
9:06:44 PM   Sigma  And I've love the name to invoke the Aquatic theme
9:11:05 PM   Sigma  I'll put some thought into it and post in the thread. I'll let you go so you can work on the AAR that everyone is bugging you about
9:18:25 PM    Sigma has quit: Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client.

(also bye, sorry for not replying, was testing a graphical bug)

[Sigma]

Hey ete, what do you think about the name "Reefstrider Caliphate"?

I was thinking a lot about them last night and I think they really crystallized in my mind as a unique ideology-- knowledge hoarders rather than knowledge sharers, whose reverence for science approaches dogmatic levels. Knowledge is power to them, and a strong government does not seek to share power but accumulate and safeguard it from others.

[ete]

Ideology seems good, it's new and a fairly strong one.

Not sure about the name though, does not give any real hint about the whole keeping knowledge for themselves thing, which I consider more important than being clearly aquatic (though ideally we'd have both like the Triton Monarchy).

Perhaps Custodians or Curators are good words to use?

[Sigma]

Ideology seems good, it's new and a fairly strong one.

Not sure about the name though, does not give any real hint about the whole keeping knowledge for themselves thing, which I consider more important than being clearly aquatic (though ideally we'd have both like the Triton Monarchy).

Perhaps Custodians or Curators are good words to use?

How about the Archon Caliphate? Referencing back to the Society of Archons, but with a better fitting ideology.

I like Reefstrider partially because it begins with R, whereas both Caliphate and Archon begins with letter that are already being used for faction names (Covenant and Armada).

[ete]

hmm.. University's original name was Archons, and Dio's mod reverts to that so that's kinda a name conflict.

Perhaps Reefstrider Custodians? Has aquatic+ideology, and starts with a new letter?

[Sigma]

Not sure about that. "Custodians" seems so blue collar, which these guys definitely are not.

[ete]

hm, I guess it does have that connotation, though it can also be "a guardian or keeper, as of an art collection, etc". Reefstrider Curators?

Also, I updated some things, mostly Seasteaders. I'm not super happy with the quote yet, but sync and see (or check the commit: https://github.com/etesp/Alpha-Centauri-Ultimate/commit/37efe29cc3ab09e3a631df32c7bfb8bd0b244683 )