Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]

[ete]

I see where you're coming from and I agree with it. I was reading them more as Rapture, when what you're proposing is more of a loose Confederacy of individuals who share an overarching desire for freedom and independence but not specific ideologies.

Exactly. The first post was not very clear about the philosophy, but that's what I'm going for here.

With that in mind, a novel approach might actually be +Growth but -Population. They are quick to grow with the influx of individuals who chafe under the "oppression" of other factions, but the logistic limitations of a Seastead coupled with ideological inflighting would mean that while they grow rapidly they rapidly reach a point where competition for limited resources makes further growth unfeasible, thus encouraging expansion. I'd argue that even a penalty as severe as Pop, 3 would work to that end.

Coupled with P.Defense, you get a very scattered faction of small but well defended, independent settlements. I like it.

+Growth would be interesting. And yea, a quite harsh pop penalty would probably be best. Maybe even 4, taking default max base size to 3. One thing I'm finding awkward about how they'd play is that while they'd grow fast initially they'd have horrible inefficiency problems after not very long, or be able to support a far smaller total population than other factions, which.. does not fit that well. I think either we'd need to give a very significant +effic or go with the free HQ at every base thing to counteract this. Or I guess with small bases Paradise Gardens would maybe work, and make them less amazing when Hab Complexes come along.

Other names: Seastead Confederacy, Seastates

The Seastead Confederacy has potential, but perhaps covenant or accord would be more fitting? Making direct reference to the agreement between member states? Or another from http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/alliance

The Seastead Accord

The Seastead Covenant


I've edited the second post to include updated sketches of the two factions we've talked about.

[Sigma]

Definitely Seastead Accord.

I don't think that an Efficiency bonus necessary fits the faction's ideology, since Efficiency to me involves the ability of a faction to allocate resources, primarily Energy, in an efficient manner throughout their territory, and a decentralized faction made up of independent city states with their own ideologies is not, to me, a paragon of efficiency. Being able to manage that inefficiency would be a challenge for the player to resolve, similar to a Leviathan player needing to reconcile their Drone/Police problems with their Offensive operations.

Other factions ideas:

-Cthulhu themed religious faction is definitely one that should work. Call them the Church of the Deep. They revere Planet's fungus mind as a source of terrible power, in contrast with the Gaian's reverence for it as a benevolent force. They also wish to achieve oneness (Transcendence) but in a much more aggressive fashion. Maaaybe Deep Pressure Hull but that's honestly not that useful of an Ability, as cool as it is.

-Merchants. Easy theme, easy to build. Personally I'm not all that interested in them.

-If we identify the Seasteaders as either Techers or Builders, we need to figure out a faction to fill in the other role.

-I find that Faction sets benefit from a Peacekeeper analog, i.e. "Guys lets stick to the mission." How about a militarized faction with an emphasis on terraforming? They start with Centauri Ecology, get +Support as a Bonus and -Planet as a penalty because their focus is on transforming the native ecosystem rather than preserving it (i.e. Purity instead of Harmony), and Naval Yards as a free facility. We could call them the Centauri Armada or something along those lines. It would be an interesting combination.

[Geo]

I believe GeoModder made a few in the old days that way, too.

That I did.

I'm still pretty fond of my Royal Atlanteans with their hidden ships.

[ete]

Definitely Seastead Accord.

Done.

I don't think that an Efficiency bonus necessary fits the faction's ideology, since Efficiency to me involves the ability of a faction to allocate resources, primarily Energy, in an efficient manner throughout their territory, and a decentralized faction made up of independent city states with their own ideologies is not, to me, a paragon of efficiency. Being able to manage that inefficiency would be a challenge for the player to resolve, similar to a Leviathan player needing to reconcile their Drone/Police problems with their Offensive operations.

hmm, okay, I see where you're coming from there. I do think that free HQs fits pretty excellently though, since in a literal sense each faction is running it's own business. And.. without some way to have plenty bases, I could see them just being extremely frustrating to play. If not, they need some other major hook to draw people in and make them seem like a worthwhile faction. Free HQs are kind of a huge distortion of normal gameplay though. I'm not sure if they'd go PS/Power due to tiny bases and lack of need for police, but virtually free planned is awkward.

Other factions ideas:

-Cthulhu themed religious faction is definitely one that should work. Call them the Church of the Deep. They revere Planet's fungus mind as a source of terrible power, in contrast with the Gaian's reverence for it as a benevolent force. They also wish to achieve oneness (Transcendence) but in a much more aggressive fashion. Maaaybe Deep Pressure Hull but that's honestly not that useful of an Ability, as cool as it is.

hmm.. yea, that could work. I'm slightly struggling to imagine many people signing up for a Cthulhu faction, but I guess the right Psi interaction and it'd fit.

-Merchants. Easy theme, easy to build. Personally I'm not all that interested in them.

Yea, probably worth having one of, but not all that interesting.

-If we identify the Seasteaders as either Techers or Builders, we need to figure out a faction to fill in the other role.

Do we need to identify the Seasteaders as either? I kinda like the idea of exploring as many new niches as possible, which may mean we have room for our own take on both a techer and builder.

-I find that Faction sets benefit from a Peacekeeper analog, i.e. "Guys lets stick to the mission." How about a militarized faction with an emphasis on terraforming? They start with Centauri Ecology, get +Support as a Bonus and -Planet as a penalty because their focus is on transforming the native ecosystem rather than preserving it (i.e. Purity instead of Harmony), and Naval Yards as a free facility. We could call them the Centauri Armada or something along those lines. It would be an interesting combination.

I like this, though it needs a bit more refinement. Exactly what are they going for/what's their approach to getting it? Possibly free Fungicide Tanks, if that gets applied correctly to just formers. And worth considering Aquafarm instead of Naval Yards, if we go more terraforming than military?

I believe GeoModder made a few in the old days that way, too.

That I did.

I'm still pretty fond of my Royal Atlanteans with their hidden ships.

I've played a few aquatic games against them, and one as them.

@Sigma: What do you think of the industrial green faction I outlined on page 1?

[Sigma]

Other factions ideas:

-Cthulhu themed religious faction is definitely one that should work. Call them the Church of the Deep. They revere Planet's fungus mind as a source of terrible power, in contrast with the Gaian's reverence for it as a benevolent force. They also wish to achieve oneness (Transcendence) but in a much more aggressive fashion. Maaaybe Deep Pressure Hull but that's honestly not that useful of an Ability, as cool as it is.

hmm.. yea, that could work. I'm slightly struggling to imagine many people signing up for a Cthulhu faction, but I guess the right Psi interaction and it'd fit.

Let's look at it this way:

You've arrived on a new planet to escape your dying world. It is mostly comprised of endless, unknown alien ocean. The water is bogged down by dense fungal growths the size of entire islands. Wriggling masses of worms erupt from the depths and drag men into raving psychotic episodes while they devour their ships whole. The fungus speaks to you in your dreams, beckoning you to venture deeper into it. What little land there is is marked by the monolithic remains of a fallen alien civilization.

It doesn't seem odd to me that some people would find the draw of a such belief irresistible.

Change the name to Convenant of the Deep. Much better.

-I find that Faction sets benefit from a Peacekeeper analog, i.e. "Guys lets stick to the mission." How about a militarized faction with an emphasis on terraforming? They start with Centauri Ecology, get +Support as a Bonus and -Planet as a penalty because their focus is on transforming the native ecosystem rather than preserving it (i.e. Purity instead of Harmony), and Naval Yards as a free facility. We could call them the Centauri Armada or something along those lines. It would be an interesting combination.

I like this, though it needs a bit more refinement. Exactly what are they going for/what's their approach to getting it? Possibly free Fungicide Tanks, if that gets applied correctly to just formers. And worth considering Aquafarm instead of Naval Yards, if we go more terraforming than military?

I like the dichotemy of militarized terraformers, especially considering that the planet is a semi-sentient organism capable of fighting back. One would think that to successfully turn a hostile world into a comfortable one you'd need to wage a war against the ecosystem itself. If we're looking for new niches to fill, this could be a very fun one to play as and against (though the focus on Terraforming would screw up most unpatched SMAC AIs and basically all SMACX AIs)

@Sigma: What do you think of the industrial green faction I outlined on page 1?

You mean the FungMinerals faction? They'd be extremely scary in an aquatic map where Minerals are hard to come by. Not sure about the characterization. They're industrialists who discovered a way to extract an incredible resource from the native life on the planet, and transform it into productive goods. Maybe that's where Andrew Ryan comes in? I like the idea though.

[ete]

Other factions ideas:

-Cthulhu themed religious faction is definitely one that should work. Call them the Church of the Deep. They revere Planet's fungus mind as a source of terrible power, in contrast with the Gaian's reverence for it as a benevolent force. They also wish to achieve oneness (Transcendence) but in a much more aggressive fashion. Maaaybe Deep Pressure Hull but that's honestly not that useful of an Ability, as cool as it is.

hmm.. yea, that could work. I'm slightly struggling to imagine many people signing up for a Cthulhu faction, but I guess the right Psi interaction and it'd fit.

Let's look at it this way:

You've arrived on a new planet to escape your dying world. It is mostly comprised of endless, unknown alien ocean. The water is bogged down by dense fungal growths the size of entire islands. Wriggling masses of worms erupt from the depths and drag men into raving psychotic episodes while they devour their ships whole. The fungus speaks to you in your dreams, beckoning you to venture deeper into it. What little land there is is marked by the monolithic remains of a fallen alien civilization.

It doesn't seem odd to me that some people would find the draw of a such belief irresistible.

Change the name to Convenant of the Deep. Much better.

You make a convincing argument. Damn, Planet is scary when you think about it like that. Okay, let's include it.

Leader:
Ideology: Fundamentalist / Green (?)
Anti-Ideology:

+1 Planet
?

I like this, though it needs a bit more refinement. Exactly what are they going for/what's their approach to getting it? Possibly free Fungicide Tanks, if that gets applied correctly to just formers. And worth considering Aquafarm instead of Naval Yards, if we go more terraforming than military?

I like the dichotemy of militarized terraformers, especially considering that the planet is a semi-sentient organism capable of fighting back. One would think that to successfully turn a hostile world into a comfortable one you'd need to wage a war against the ecosystem itself. If we're looking for new niches to fill, this could be a very fun one to play as and against (though the focus on Terraforming would screw up most unpatched SMAC AIs and basically all SMACX AIs)

hm, yea, there's something good there. Unite humanity against Planet to transform it into new Earth and survive as a species. They've even got a natural foe in the Covenant of the Deep, which is always nice.

Centauri Armada (?)

Leader: Admiral <something>
Anti-ideology: Green
Ideology: Power?

Cent Eco
+1 Support
Naval Yards
Sea former at start
Fungicide Tanks (?)

Penalties:
-1 Planet
more?

@Sigma: What do you think of the industrial green faction I outlined on page 1?

You mean the FungMinerals faction? They'd be extremely scary in an aquatic map where Minerals are hard to come by. Not sure about the characterization. They're industrialists who discovered a way to extract an incredible resource from the native life on the planet, and transform it into productive goods. Maybe that's where Andrew Ryan comes in? I like the idea though.

hm, you're right, it could do with some more politics. I'll think about it more.

[Buster's Uncle]

I recall reading in an old thread about a terraformer faction -it was a really popular custom faction theme 10-15 years ago, though I never heard of a good one getting finished satisfactorily- where someone suggested a "kill Planet" victory; win when all fungus on the map is removed.  I wonder if that's doable for Yitzi now?

[Flux]

...I'd just point out that Maniac, not an artist, used to make up his own faction graphics via cut-and-paste from old Network Node factions

I have to ask, what is a Network Node faction? Was that an old AC forum or something?

EDIT: Answered my own question. Found a file with every faction from there.

[ete]

There are several terraformer factions in the archive http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Category:Factions_with_free_Formers and http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Category:Factions_with_terraform_bonus have a bunch each, but none are aquatic.

...I'd just point out that Maniac, not an artist, used to make up his own faction graphics via cut-and-paste from old Network Node factions

I have to ask, what is a Network Node faction? Was that an old AC forum or something?

It was a place that collected, created, and hosted factions a long time ago. They were mostly recovered, and formed the bulk of my ultimate faction pack which contains 160+ new factions.

[Sigma]

Suggestions:

Covenant of the Deep

Leader: Deacon
Ideology: Fundamentalist
Anti-Ideology: Free Market OR Wealth
Aggressive
Tech: Social Psyche? Or Planetary Networks for Spies

+Planet (Nature lovers)
+Probe (Secretive!)
-Economy (Nobody wants to trade with them) OR -Growth (Creepy faction has limited following)
Free Brood Pit
+Psi Combat
-Probe Cost
-Conventional Combat
Ability: Deep Radar


Centauri Armada or Centaury Flotilla

Leader: Admiral
Ideology: Power
Anti-Ideology: Green
Erratic
Tech: CentEco

+Support
-Planet
Naval Yards
Fungicide Tanks
Sea Former

This seems reasonable to me. They lack a clear combat ability like most other factions do, but they also lack clear weaknesses except their inability to deal with the planet's ecosystem in a non-aggressive manner. The Free Naval Yards give them a Morale advantage to compete with the Triton Monarchy, though if the TM can nab the Maritime Control Center they they will surge ahead.

I think we're onto something here.

Green Builders (Tentative)

For the Green Builders, I think we need to work with the idea that by using the Fungus for minerals they are literally incorporating the planet's bio-ecology into their infrastructure. What kind of society would that create? Do they have a scientific perspective on Planet, like Deidre, or a reverential view like Cha Dawn?


Tech: Industrial Base OR Biogenetics

+Industry
FungMinerals
-Morale (not a serious military force) OR -Support
Ability: Hyponotic Trance (Fungal construction makes them resistant to native attacks)
Free Fac: Recycling Tanks

[ete]

Suggestions:

Covenant of the Deep

Leader: Deacon
Ideology: Fundamentalist
Anti-Ideology: Free Market OR Wealth
Aggressive
Tech: Social Psyche? Or Planetary Networks for Spies

+Planet (Nature lovers)
+Probe (Secretive!)
-Economy (Nobody wants to trade with them) OR -Growth (Creepy faction has limited following)
Free Brood Pit
+Psi Combat
-Probe Cost
-Conventional Combat
Ability: Deep Radar

hmm.. I mostly like it, but think maybe we need different/more penalties. Especially if the green builders have a conventional combat penalty. I'd maybe prefer to go with just pure +Planet? Still included in second post as a sketch.

Centauri Armada or Centaury Flotilla

Leader: Admiral
Ideology: Power
Anti-Ideology: Green
Erratic
Tech: CentEco

+Support
-Planet
Naval Yards
Fungicide Tanks
Sea Former

This seems reasonable to me. They lack a clear combat ability like most other factions do, but they also lack clear weaknesses except their inability to deal with the planet's ecosystem in a non-aggressive manner. The Free Naval Yards give them a Morale advantage to compete with the Triton Monarchy, though if the TM can nab the Maritime Control Center they they will surge ahead.

I think we're onto something here.

Yea. It's a fairly middle of the road faction, with some worthwhile bonuses, but nothing spectacular. Maybe worth having one more minor penalty, but otherwise seems good.

Green Builders (Tentative)

For the Green Builders, I think we need to work with the idea that by using the Fungus for minerals they are literally incorporating the planet's bio-ecology into their infrastructure. What kind of society would that create? Do they have a scientific perspective on Planet, like Deidre, or a reverential view like Cha Dawn?


Tech: Industrial Base OR Biogenetics

+Industry
FungMinerals
-Morale (not a serious military force) OR -Support
Ability: Hyponotic Trance (Fungal construction makes them resistant to native attacks)
Free Fac: Recycling Tanks

I'm thinking a society of pragmatists? They find that rather than dealing directly with their environment and other factions, they can stay safe at home and send native life off to do the dirty work and heavy lifting. They don't particularly care for Planet and lack an intrinsic Planet bonus, but spend significant effort training Psi talents and breeding native life (not capturing as much as others).

I like the idea of a faction where you really want to _build_ natives from a gameplay perspective. The only other example I can think of is the Annihilators, which are not exactly designed for fair play. A combination of normal combat penalties, Psi bonus, high Industry, and poor Planet (maybe even -1) seems the best way to achieve that. Hypnotic Trance would go against it though, by strengthening non-native units.

[Sigma]

I'm thinking a society of pragmatists? They find that rather than dealing directly with their environment and other factions, they can stay safe at home and send native life off to do the dirty work and heavy lifting. They don't particularly care for Planet and lack an intrinsic Planet bonus, but spend significant effort training Psi talents and breeding native life (not capturing as much as others).

I like the idea of a faction where you really want to _build_ natives from a gameplay perspective. The only other example I can think of is the Annihilators, which are not exactly designed for fair play. A combination of normal combat penalties, Psi bonus, high Industry, and poor Planet (maybe even -1) seems the best way to achieve that. Hypnotic Trance would go against it though, by strengthening non-native units.

Good way of looking at it.

So maybe take the +Psi bonus from the Covenant and move it to the Green Builders?

I actually think that Aquatic factions have an incentive incentive to build Native Units already, as they are cheap Transports that can defend themselves, and in my experience it's a lot harder to build worm hunters in the ocean compared to on land. So by giving Green Builders +Psi, +Industry, +Fungminerals and no native Planet bonus, that would be a very strong encouragement to flood the world with Islands and Sealurks.

Now the challenge is to make them contrast with the Covenant. The Covenant lacks their Industrial capacity, but they aren't penalized in that area, so they can still build Natives if they want but more more in line to capture them. Now if we give the Green Builders +Psi, maybe we give the Covenant Fanatic. This would make them a cross between Miriam and Joaquin from my faction set, with her Probe bonus and his Planet. Do that and you need to remove the -Conventional Attack penalty, otherwise the Fanatic bonus is neutered.

So the Builders would end up as:

+Industry
+FungMinerals
-Support? (Not sure about this)
+Psi
-Conventional
Brood Pit

And the Covenant could look like:

+Planet
+Probe
-Economy
-Research, maybe?
Fanatic
Deep Radar
Fac:

-Research + Probe on an aquatic map would be pretty awful for an AI because they don't know how to make Probe Boats, as far as I've seen.

[ete]

I'm thinking a society of pragmatists? They find that rather than dealing directly with their environment and other factions, they can stay safe at home and send native life off to do the dirty work and heavy lifting. They don't particularly care for Planet and lack an intrinsic Planet bonus, but spend significant effort training Psi talents and breeding native life (not capturing as much as others).

I like the idea of a faction where you really want to _build_ natives from a gameplay perspective. The only other example I can think of is the Annihilators, which are not exactly designed for fair play. A combination of normal combat penalties, Psi bonus, high Industry, and poor Planet (maybe even -1) seems the best way to achieve that. Hypnotic Trance would go against it though, by strengthening non-native units.

Good way of looking at it.

So maybe take the +Psi bonus from the Covenant and move it to the Green Builders?

Yep, that's what I was thinking.

I actually think that Aquatic factions have an incentive incentive to build Native Units already, as they are cheap Transports that can defend themselves, and in my experience it's a lot harder to build worm hunters in the ocean compared to on land. So by giving Green Builders +Psi, +Industry, +Fungminerals and no native Planet bonus, that would be a very strong encouragement to flood the world with Islands and Sealurks.

It's true, but native units are pretty mineral intensive to build, and at sea you don't have much spare, which is why you need extra minerals to give more incentives. They're also vulnerable to bombardment unless you stack them with bombardment units.

Now the challenge is to make them contrast with the Covenant. The Covenant lacks their Industrial capacity, but they aren't penalized in that area, so they can still build Natives if they want but more more in line to capture them. Now if we give the Green Builders +Psi, maybe we give the Covenant Fanatic. This would make them a cross between Miriam and Joaquin from my faction set, with her Probe bonus and his Planet. Do that and you need to remove the -Conventional Attack penalty, otherwise the Fanatic bonus is neutered.

hmm.. that seems mostly about right. They'll need some other penalty to replace that conventional one, but yes.

So the Builders would end up as:

+Industry
+FungMinerals
-Support? (Not sure about this)
+Psi
-Conventional
Brood Pit

Seems pretty close to what I've edited into the second post, I dropped -support.

And the Covenant could look like:

+Planet
+Probe
-Economy
-Research, maybe?
Fanatic
Deep Radar
Fac:

-Research + Probe on an aquatic map would be pretty awful for an AI because they don't know how to make Probe Boats, as far as I've seen.

hmm.. it seems okay but a little.. bland, I guess? A bit like taking a little bit from each of the other native and religion facs and adding aquatic, but not giving it anything to properly stand out with. Maybe Aquatic is enough, and it's okay because of that... hmmm...

And I think we should make including probe foils in alphax standard. They're just too useful to ignore, and it helps the AI.

[Sigma]

hmm.. it seems okay but a little.. bland, I guess? A bit like taking a little bit from each of the other native and religion facs and adding aquatic, but not giving it anything to properly stand out with. Maybe Aquatic is enough, and it's okay because of that... hmmm...

And I think we should make including probe foils in alphax standard. They're just too useful to ignore, and it helps the AI.

Bland is the word that I'd use to describe it too. They look like every other Militant Religious faction except in the ocean.

The problem is that we are setting up two factions based on native lifeforms, and I don't know if the customizability of the game is granular enough to make them distinct and interesting.

[ete]

hmm.. it seems okay but a little.. bland, I guess? A bit like taking a little bit from each of the other native and religion facs and adding aquatic, but not giving it anything to properly stand out with. Maybe Aquatic is enough, and it's okay because of that... hmmm...

And I think we should make including probe foils in alphax standard. They're just too useful to ignore, and it helps the AI.

Bland is the word that I'd use to describe it too. They look like every other Militant Religious faction except in the ocean.

The problem is that we are setting up two factions based on native lifeforms, and I don't know if the customizability of the game is granular enough to make them distinct and interesting.

It's true.. the other one is pretty distinct from all the others I've seen, but I don't have any ideas about how to make this one interesting right now... will think on it.

Also, I made the Neo-Reactionary text file! Uses Aki's dialogue currently, not enough bases, a bit rough, and no graphics, but it should work fine for test games. Have a look if you like.

Main issue is I can't fit both "we want to be in the sea" and NRx justifications into one quote. Maybe I can just do two?

For graphics, would a crown/throne thing be going too far?