Rusty's Naval/Military History thread

[Buster's Uncle]

Interesting.  Certainly makes sense to me - the Navy is a big enough investment in the big machines they live and fight in that it's logical to go in for some cheaper, expendable, special purpose ships instead of cramming in the billion-dollar ones where they don't fit.

[Rusty Edge]

Yeah, lots of times a concept starts out well enough.
But the Pentagon/industrial complex has a Midas touch.

In the same way that mission creep can turn an advisory capacity into a full blown lost cause war, mission creep can transform a weapons program.

I worry whenever they try to Swiss-Army-knife a program. The F-35 program suffered from that. A vertical tail is bad for stealth, and critical for carrier landings. Likewise, there's a difference in undercarriages between carrier -based and other airplanes.

This concept seems more like a Coast-guard cutter replacement program, than a scratch ASW ship. After all, you don't find subs in shallow coastal waters. ASW is a critical role. Some think that subs make surface navies obsolete. That's certainly true when you fail to interdict them.


Still, sometimes these programs involve into something practical. The Bradley started out as a recon vehicle.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pentagon_Wars

It eventually evolved from a death trap to something formidable, even though it was way later and more costly than anyone could have imagined.

[Buster's Uncle]

Then there's the Osprey, which still looks to me like an outrageously underpowered copter crossed with a painfully slow prop plane - but I wouldn't be surprised if the Corps didn't turn it into something very effective -and actually safe- before they gave up.

[Geo]

No submarines in coastal waters? What are those drug gangs then using to smuggle their stuff in the US? Atm they're 'only' semi-submerged, but that won't last. The US Coast Guard sure can use a reliable sonar for shallow waters.

[Rusty Edge]

No submarines in coastal waters? What are those drug gangs then using to smuggle their stuff in the US? Atm they're 'only' semi-submerged, but that won't last. The US Coast Guard sure can use a reliable sonar for shallow waters.

I'm not saying this to be argumentative. Maybe you know more about this than I do.

I thought that these days the drugs came across the borders, hidden amongst the legal traffic and commerce, or carried by people, mixed with the illegal immigrants . I've only heard of drug smuggling subs on a TV crime drama or two, I didn't know it was a real issue.

Wouldn't sonar buoys work?  Frankly, I'd rather National Security had people passively listening to our coastal waters than reading masses of e-mails without warrants..

[Buster's Uncle]

Me too.

[Geo]

Wouldn't sonar buoys work?  Frankly, I'd rather National Security had people passively listening to our coastal waters than reading masses of e-mails without warrants..

Yes, those 'drug subs' are a real thing.
And the problem with them is they're small enough to be built from fibreglass, giving a significant lower sonar return. And of course it doesn't help they're *just* at/underneath the surface.
But I bet ya the Navy, if not the Coast Guard, already has places with pretty dense sonar buoy coverage near the Mexican nautical border.

[Rusty Edge]

Thanks, Geo!

[Buster's Uncle]

Shipwreck found off North Carolina, possibly from late 1700s

[Geo]

A Barbary Corsair!

[Buster's Uncle]

Is it?  Did I miss something in the article?  What was a Mediterranean pirate doing on the NC outer banks?

[Rusty Edge]

I thought somebody was joking, but you know him better that I do.

[Buster's Uncle]

I have trouble telling sometimes, too.   We all have our moods.

(I was imagining the answer, if not joking, being "Because the Caribbean, where there were still Spanish treasure ships, albeit less, when the Barbary Pirates operated.")

[Geo]

It was a joke, but at the same time a wink to the time the early US Navy forced the Barbary citystates in the Mediterranean to exempt American merchants from paying 'taxes'.

[Eadee]

I'd love to discuss this with a German - I intuit with my enormous buncle powers that a German would get it for some mysterious reason.

Well, being a German, I indeed do feel with you on this.

I don't want to Hijack this topic so I'll try to keep it short.

In Germany we almost have no patriotism at all. Everytime you say "I'm proud to be a German" outside of a debate around Soccer, you're instantly a nazi. And I don't mean that foreign people call us nazis if we show patriotism. We do this ourselves. The German people doesn't seem to be able to let go and move on. Ok, just yesterday they found and defused another unexploded aircraft bomb from WW2 only 2.15 kilometers from my home. If this happens several times a year in your city, its hard to not think about that war.

My Grandfather was very young during WW2. He had to join the army of Germany and got into captivity pretty quickly. So his whole Life was heavily influenced by this war. I know he probably fought in this war at some point, and he might have killed some of the good guys in this time.
So, the connection I have to WW2 is pretty close, my grandfather still lives and he told me a lot of stories when I was young. Since almost everything he experienced in his youth was connected to WW2 there were a lot of stories that revolved around this war. But I was a child and he didn't tell me any stories about actual gunfights or any other combat situation. Instead they were about how they managed their life in the army, how they tricked their officers if they didn't want to polish the officers boots and stuff like that. So all I know about him is only these things and what he did after the war. He is an awesome grandfather since he teached me a lot of skills and encouraged my curiosity about everything. He never tried to influence me into thinking jews or other ethnic groups were less worthy or that Nazi-Germany wasn't bad at all.

I have no Idea if I can be proud of what he did in WW2. But I know I can be proud of him being a good person afterwards. However, even if I'm proud of him, I never managed to feel something similar for Germany as a whole. Even though we really DID well since the end of WW2 I just can't identify with this nation without my own mind telling me I'm going to become a nazi if I follow this road (what is ridiculous but thats the way we are teached to think).

Back to BU's post: I honestly must admit I do know about these preconceptions of the southern states because of this war. And I can imagine how it is difficult to show any sign of affiliation to what and who you are without being afraid of blamed by someone for crimes you never commited. And yes, if I'd travel to the southern states I'd too expect to see more racism and all that then in the northern ones since I'm only human and can't shrug these preconseptions off that easily. However I'd never talk bad about an individual person because of these preconceptions or even insult him. I know how senseless they are and every person gets its chance to prove 'em wrong and I'm quite happy if they're proven wrong often, this way I finally might get rid of them totally.

I had the luck to grow up in Bavaria since I was 3 years old. If you say you're proud of being a Bavarian noone calls you a nazi. And even though Germany surely has accomplished things I could be proud of too, I can only feel good about being a Bavarian (even though I wasn't born here). Bavaria might be best known for the beer, and cars but there's even something in WW2 you can be proud of as a Bavarian what suprised me very much when I learned about it (its a minor thing though):
In whole nazi-Germany you had to greet Hitler all the time and not doing so was punished. With one Exception. The Bavarians were very religious people and always used the greeting "Grüß Gott" wich means "greet God" and they refused to change this during the reign of Hitler. Finally it was allowed in whole Bavaria to say "Grüß Gott" instead of the usual nazi-greeting.

I really hope you too found something you can identify with and be proud of. If I had to guess Buster is someone you're proud of but I don't know you well enough to make any more educated guesses.

That wasn't short at all. I apologize.