Rusty's Naval/Military History thread

[Geo]

I believe the key survival skill in this contest is seeing the enemy before he sees you.

Right now I'm wondering if that isn't the key survival skill in most kinds of combat, not just early biplanes.

The one who sees the enemy first has the options to plan, attack, maneuver, or flee.

"You can't kill an enemy you can't see.  The inverse is also true." - Rejinaldo Leonardo Pedro Bolivar de Alencor-Araripe, Principles of modern war.

[Rusty Edge]

Wow.
Makes me wonder if any WWI pilot ever saw combat in WWII.

An interesting question. I've been digging into it. As Buncle says, it's a young man's game. Eyesight is an important consideration. Another is that those who continued to fly between the wars continued to risk their lives in experimental aircraft, whether barnstorming, setting up airmail systems & airlines, or  trying to set new records. Staying in the air force meant test piloting or training new pilots, neither of which was entirely safe.

 I don't think there were any Americans. The age was kind of a stretch for the US Army Air Corps. The leader/organizer  of the Flying tigers ( American volunteers in China during WWII, before we entered the war) was trained in WWI, but he never saw action in it.

Figuring the answer would be French pilots, because they had many and were desperate, I looked up all I could find on Wiki. The answer is that I found several who distinguished themselves- one  in an air  command position, another who fought in the infantry, another in the resistance, and another who tried to get his family out of the country ahead of the Nazis.
None of them participated in WWII as combat pilots, as far as I can tell.

Of course the Germans were also hard pressed, and I found that many of the survivors had leadership roles at the Colonel/ General levels. It seems that military service for surviving WWI pilots was commonplace, but I didn't find any fighter pilots among the ones I checked.
 I did find this Nazi bomber pilot who appears to have been vigorous in both World Wars. In his case, he was a Colonel leading from the front.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Fiebig

[Rusty Edge]

                                                                                                                             

"You can't kill an enemy you can't see.  The inverse is also true." - Rejinaldo Leonardo Pedro Bolivar de Alencor-Araripe, Principles of modern war.

Thank you and BatUncle for that.

I chose to be a farmer rather than a warrior. When I read military histories and biographies I sometimes relate to them as a hunter. Of course, there too, what a lot of people describe as luck is the difference in skill level between those who know where to look and can see the game before it sees them, and those who don't.

Fortunately for them, the game doesn't shoot back.

[Mart]

Civ 4 has a substantial expansion mod: Caveman 2 Cosmos. It's gigabytes huge.
One of the elements of the mod is hunters line, you start from a chaser, which although has good +strength vs animals, it gets killed often. Animal units are numerous. They made hunting there very interesting, as you not only can get some small amount of food and production from in-field kills, but caught animals you can later butcher for larger benefit of food and production. And there are other actions, like creating myths, songs, herds, etc. finally you can get them into zoo facilities in later eras. From snakes you make snake charmer building, poison crafter hut, ... After chaser, there is tracker, then hunter (having now almost always 100% chance, when full health, otherwise it can get killed by an animal), and so on, the last one is somthing like a safari-goer, I think. The mod is in making, still after many years.
This is the only civ4 mod I play now. No vanila civ4-BTS.

[Rusty Edge]

I tried Caveman 2 Cosmos in the early stages, I may have to give it another go. I know it was a pretty ambitious project.

[Mart]

I play v35, which is good and large improvement from v28. And now, they are finishing bugs for v36

[Geo]

Of course the Germans were also hard pressed, and I found that many of the survivors had leadership roles at the Colonel/ General levels. It seems that military service for surviving WWI pilots was commonplace, but I didn't find any fighter pilots among the ones I checked.
 I did find this Nazi bomber pilot who appears to have been vigorous in both World Wars. In his case, he was a Colonel leading from the front.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Fiebig

He was executed for war crimes in Yuguslavia? Sounds a bit weird.

[Rusty Edge]

He was executed for war crimes in Yuguslavia? Sounds a bit weird.

It does,  doesn't it?

I followed some links.
Yugoslavia aspired to neutrality, but eventually they were surrounded by Axis powers. Wanting to secure his flank before backstabbing Stalin, Hitler insisted they join him in the Axis, thereby preventing Brit and American bombers from basing there, or establishing a front.   The King stalled, but conceded.

There was a Coup . A different noble became king of Yugoslavia, and the treaty with the Axis was nullified.

Hitler was outraged at such defiance and ordered an example made of them- "Operation Punishment" . Central  Belgrade was bombed for 2 or 3 days. Then the German army rolled through the country in under two weeks. Then the country was partitioned among the loyal Axis neighbors.


It seems to me that by WWII  standards it was a decapitation/command and control attack of gov and military bldgs., utilities, etc.  A lot of capitals got bombed in WWII, complete with residential destruction and loss of civilian life.

Maybe the war crimes trials were a way to distract/unite Yugoslavians unhappy with the new Communist gov against an old enemy?

[Buster's Uncle]

There were a LOT of war crimes committed in Yugoslavia - they flat out hunted Serbs sometimes.  The Croat Ustasi was so brutal they disgusted the German SS; not a trivial achievement, to say the least.

[Geo]

Yes, but an air squadron commander. Its not like he committed heinous acts against Yuguslavians in person.

[Buster's Uncle]

He had to land sometimes - maybe he was a mean drunk.

[Rusty Edge]

I was forgetting about the atrocities on the ground during the German occupation.
Thank you Buncle, I stand corrected, they did have legitimate cause for war crimes trials in Yugoslavia.

Geo, you're right, Fiebig didn't commit heinous acts in person, he acted as an air officer at the time.

Well, I finally got to the bottom of things, I think, with help from a WWII forum.

Belgrade was declared an open city just before/during the bombings, therefore bombing Belegrade was a violation of international law.  It may have been a disingenuous gesture on the part of the Yugoslavs, but nevertheless it's a different can of worms legally speaking.
It seems they were the only people charged and convicted with bombing war crimes in WWII.

Fiebig, and his boss Alexander Lohr were both found guilty of being aware of the open city designation and proceeding with Hitler's wishes anyway.  Well, it also seems that Lohr was a Nazi with other blood on his hands in Yugoslavia, so maybe he received justice by firing squad.  Fiebig was hung by a rope. The accusers say that both of them could have resigned instead of following orders.

The way I read it, Hitler dealt directly with Lohr in this matter. Hitler was already upset.


Frankly, I don't think many men would have taken the resignation approach, standing in his boots, at that time.  Or Fiebig's.

[Buster's Uncle]

I don't think resigning your commission in the German armed forces was all that good for your life expectancy...

A little poking around had led me to the same conclusion about it being the bombing of Belgrade - Karl von Oberkamp was convicted and executed in the same round of trials for that.

[Buster's Uncle]

Sunken Japanese WWII Battleship Located in the Philippines
http://news.yahoo.com/sunken-japanese-wwii-battleship-located-philippines-210741638.html

[Rusty Edge]

The internet is amazing-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_battleship_Musashi

The article is already updated in a couple of places to note the recent discovery.
Stalin and Hitler would drool over the ability to instantly change the past which the internet affords.

The Musashi and Yamoto were elite duty in the IJN, but not something I would welcome, as I understand that those 18 inch guns were so large that they gave concussions to crewmembers above decks and caused heads to bleed whenever they were fired.