SMAC in SMAX default units

[ete]

I'm not sure kyrub and others thoughts on it, but one way to help the AI out significantly is to design some useful units for them which they otherwise miss out on such as Probe Foils. If this is not considered to disruptive to SMAC style, I'd think it worthwhile to add a handful of custom units.

So, should we add custom units and if yes which would improve the game? This topic may provide inspiration.

[kyrub]

First quick reaction:
- I don't see how it could be disruptive to original SMAC. Better AI is never bad for a game. Automatic design simplifies my work, I welcome it.
- The one problem I had with the alpha.txt changes was the fact, that (almost) everybody fiddles with this file, there is no standard (and you can't just overwrite personal settings of a player, I thought, that's rude). Putting SMAC in SMAX is a welcome opportunity to set such a standard.
- The second (smaller) problem is that unit's reactor is not upgraded. I believe this can be solved via .exe modding.
- The third problem: the units on the list automatically clutter human player's base workshop. Also, the player should do his designs alone, it takes something from the game. It is more of an annoyance, but I still dislike it, and would like to let it not happen.
- The fourth problem, there should not be too many units on the list, as I have some doubts about the effect on AI. AI has a workshop limit, that can be filled up, which then creates a set of extra decisions which are quite complex and probably not welcome (which unit should AI make obsolete etc). Alpha.txt designs are never made obsolete, so the design limit shrinks. AI already designs a good number of units, especially in late-mid game. And it should be a bit more, according to my AI project. (The list you linked, ete, has length I'd call pretty risky).

[Yitzi]

First quick reaction:
- I don't see how it could be disruptive to original SMAC. Better AI is never bad for a game. Automatic design simplifies my work, I welcome it.
- The one problem I had with the alpha.txt changes was the fact, that (almost) everybody fiddles with this file, there is no standard (and you can't just overwrite personal settings of a player, I thought, that's rude). Putting SMAC in SMAX is a welcome opportunity to set such a standard.
- The second (smaller) problem is that unit's reactor is not upgraded. I believe this can be solved via .exe modding.
- The third problem: the units on the list automatically clutter human player's base workshop. Also, the player should do his designs alone, it takes something from the game. It is more of an annoyance, but I still dislike it, and would like to let it not happen.
- The fourth problem, there should not be too many units on the list, as I have some doubts about the effect on AI. AI has a workshop limit, that can be filled up, which then creates a set of extra decisions which are quite complex and probably not welcome (which unit should AI make obsolete etc). Alpha.txt designs are never made obsolete, so the design limit shrinks. AI already designs a good number of units, especially in late-mid game. And it should be a bit more, according to my AI project. (The list you linked, ete, has length I'd call pretty risky).

I'm pretty sure that alpha(x).txt designs do not could toward the limit of 64 designs per player (though there's a limit of 64 of them too).

[DrazharLn]

Agreed that if we add more custom units it would be best if we could make them only appear for the AI. We should also be careful not to give them units that are obviously more advanced than their tech (so as not to confuse human players with infiltrators).

I think that perhaps we shouldn't add new custom units at all unless we can only enable them for the AI. Otherwise we need to tell new players that there are a bunch of weird units they shouldn't use, and that stops this being a no-interaction patch.

[ete]

First quick reaction:
- I don't see how it could be disruptive to original SMAC. Better AI is never bad for a game. Automatic design simplifies my work, I welcome it.
- The one problem I had with the alpha.txt changes was the fact, that (almost) everybody fiddles with this file, there is no standard (and you can't just overwrite personal settings of a player, I thought, that's rude). Putting SMAC in SMAX is a welcome opportunity to set such a standard.

Okay, good to know.

- The second (smaller) problem is that unit's reactor is not upgraded. I believe this can be solved via .exe modding.

scient has an unfinished patch which includes this (well, lets you set the reactor of a unt) and a bunch of other changes. If someone can get hold of him and request a copy of his file it could be merged in.

- The third problem: the units on the list automatically clutter human player's base workshop. Also, the player should do his designs alone, it takes something from the game. It is more of an annoyance, but I still dislike it, and would like to let it not happen.
- The fourth problem, there should not be too many units on the list, as I have some doubts about the effect on AI. AI has a workshop limit, that can be filled up, which then creates a set of extra decisions which are quite complex and probably not welcome (which unit should AI make obsolete etc). Alpha.txt designs are never made obsolete, so the design limit shrinks. AI already designs a good number of units, especially in late-mid game. And it should be a bit more, according to my AI project. (The list you linked, ete, has length I'd call pretty risky).

I think these two only come into play strongly if there's a significant number of units added. Personally, I'd prefer to only add custom techs at tech levels that they're already available and at default prices, which only leaves a few designs not caught by the auto designer. The topic I linked was just somewhere to look for ideas, I would be hesitant about including anything like that many by default. Also, having a few designs otherwise missed can improve the game for humans, for example I played for years before thinking of the probe foil and started enjoying sea battles/exploration more once I was using it. Hints about units which are cool is positive imo, so long as it's not a flood of options.

[Geo]

- The second (smaller) problem is that unit's reactor is not upgraded. I believe this can be solved via .exe modding.

Do you mean upgradeable? Because two of the Ogre units come with stronger reactors then fission in SMACX.
And I've seen alphax files with the extra reactor flags after the abilities flags in the #units list.

[DrazharLn]

In the alphax I've been modding, the Ogres are hardcoded with their reactors and special abilities. The table doesn't have anywhere to specify reactor level.

You might be mistaken or maybe you saw a version of alphax to go with one of scient's unreleased patches?

RE: Disabling the aliens. I'm not completely against Alien factions, but this project is about porting SMAC to SMACX and adding new community stuff to the mix is a side project that (I think) is mainly happening because we happen to have enough space to showcase some factions. and it conveniently gets rid of the SMACX ones.

Faction mods that add aliens aren't something I think this forum is against, they're just not entirely compatible with this project. OTOH, such mods should still stand to gain from the additional options that we want the assembly-nauts to add, and from the mod managers that have been developed.

[Buster's Uncle]

Thus why I mentioned the barely-mod splinter/swap-gender faction sets closely based on the originals.

I have a version of the scientIfic patch from a few months before he dropped out of contact last year; I wouldn't be comfortable making it public without his permission, but I think he'd be okay with sharing it with a few tech types privately, if I can find it...

[Geo]

You might be mistaken or maybe you saw a version of alphax to go with one of scient's unreleased patches?

See for yourself.

Code: [Select]

#UNITS
23
Colony Pod,             Infantry, Colony Pod,   Scout,      8, 0, 0, None,    -1, 00000000000000000000000000000, 1
Formers,                Infantry, Formers,      Scout,      9, 0, 0, Ecology, -1, 00000000000000000000000000000, 1
Scout Patrol,           Infantry, Gun,          Scout,      3, 0, 0, None,    -1, 00000000000000000000000000000, 1
Transport Foil,         Foil,     Transport,    Scout,      7, 0, 0, DocFlex, -1, 00000000000000000000000000000, 1
*Sea Formers,           Foil,     Formers,      Scout,      9, 0, 0, Disable, -1, 00000000000000000000000000000, 1
Supply Crawler,         Infantry, Supply,       Scout,     10, 0, 0, IndAuto, -1, 00000000000000000000000000000, 1
Probe Team,             Speeder,  Probe Team,   Scout,     11, 0, 0, PlaNets, -1, 00000000000000000000000000000, 1
Alien Artifact,         Infantry, Artifact,     Scout,     12,10, 0, Disable,  2, 00000000000000000000000000000, 1
Mind Worms,             Infantry, Psi,          Psi,        1, 5, 0, CentEmp,  3, 00000000000000000000000000000, 1
Isle of the Deep,       Foil,     Psi,          Psi,        7, 8, 4, CentMed, -1, 00000000000000000000000000000, 1
Locusts of Chiron,      Gravship, Psi,          Psi,        4,10, 0, CentGen, -1, 00000000000000000000000100000, 1
Unity Rover,            Speeder,  Gun,          Scout,      3, 0, 0, Disable, -1, 00000000000000000000000000000, 1
Unity Scout Chopper,    Copter,   Gun,          Scout,      4, 0, 0, Disable, -1, 00000000000000000000000100000, 1
Unity Foil,             Foil,     Transport,    Scout,      7, 0, 0, Disable, -1, 00000100000000000000000000000, 1
Sealurk,                Foil,     Psi,          Psi,        6, 6, 0, CentPsi,  4, 00000000000000000000001000000, 1
Spore Launcher,         Infantry, Psi,          Psi,        0, 5, 0, Bioadap,  5, 00000000000001000000000000000, 1
Battle Ogre MK1,        Infantry, R-Laser,      3-Res,      0,10, 0, Disable,  6, 00000010000000000000000000000, 1
Battle Ogre MK2,        Infantry, R-Bolt,       8-Res,      0,15, 0, Disable,  6, 00010010000000000000000000000, 2
Battle Ogre MK3,        Speeder,  String,       Stasis,     0,20, 0, Disable,  6, 00010010000000000000000000000, 3
Fungal Tower,           Infantry, Psi,          Psi,        3, 0, 0, Disable,  1, 00000000000000000000000000000, 1
Unity Mining Laser,     Infantry, Laser,        Scout,      0, 0, 0, Disable, -1, 00000000000000000000000000000, 1
Sea Escape Pod,         Foil,     Colony Pod,   Scout,      8, 0, 0, Disable, -1, 00000000000000000000000000000, 1
Unity Gunship,          Foil,     Gun,          Scout,     -1, 0, 0, Disable, -1, 00000000000000000000000000000, 1
If this is from Scient's work, I wonder where I can find it back.

[kyrub]

- The second (smaller) problem is that unit's reactor is not upgraded. I believe this can be solved via .exe modding.

scient has an unfinished patch which includes this (well, lets you set the reactor of a unt) and a bunch of other changes. If someone can get hold of him and request a copy of his file it could be merged in.

It is not necessary, I think.
Since AI designing is my job, I have studied the function, I know the place and I am 99% sure I can put an automatic "take best reactor" change in the process. Should be relatively simple.

[Geo]

Heck, I just remembered how I got it. Scient mailed me a link to this unfinished patch for playtesting a year ago. It's a installer version called RC7.

[ete]

- The second (smaller) problem is that unit's reactor is not upgraded. I believe this can be solved via .exe modding.

scient has an unfinished patch which includes this (well, lets you set the reactor of a unt) and a bunch of other changes. If someone can get hold of him and request a copy of his file it could be merged in.

It is not necessary, I think.
Since AI designing is my job, I have studied the function, I know the place and I am 99% sure I can put an automatic "take best reactor" change in the process. Should be relatively simple.

I'm not sure if that's optimal for non-combat units. Often the best reactor to use for value is fission (infantry) or fusion (sea/speeder/tank/air), so the AI may end up overpaying if they just go for the max reactor level on non-combats. Ideal solution would be picking the cheapest reactor for units without a weapon module (super ideal solution: combine with scient's mod and have one of the reactor values work as "pick cheapest"), but that may be a lot more tricky.

And yea, I think scient wanted some more playtesting before he was comfortable making a full release, but I doubt he'd object to his changes being integrated into the current main patch so long as they are appropriately credited. Geo/BU: getting Yitzi and kyrub a copy for if they want to reference it would be good.

[Buster's Uncle]

Agreed.  I think Geo's copy is more recent, and I'm not having a lot of luck finding mine.  Geo?

[Nexii]

Police sentinels probably come to mind as one the AI underuses.  That and Empath/Trance scouts when you're going heavy native life.

High morale might be another candidate in cases where it would push their units to Elite.  Though Trained troops would be more across all categories - not a default. 

Another note is that since unit cost mode is modifyable, sometimes certain chassis will be favored on certain units over others.  And reactor - depending on how reactor is costed (ete pointed this out - but I will say it's not the same for all unit cost modes).

[kyrub]

@Nexii   
Just a quick note:
Whenever you use word "if" or "when", it would be better to put that in the .exe code in form of a condition.
The alpha.txt units should be "plainly better" units, obvious stuff no one should ever miss. Unconditional things.