Valjiir

[Valjiir1]

I have to disagree about Vulcans not being creative. Spock is musical, and I'm sure there are Vulcan composers. You can write music that may be mathematically correct, but it takes creativity to make music that people want to listen to.

I tend to agree with you about the creative thing - but perhaps Vulcan composers only write things that Vulcans would want to listen to. 

[Buster's Uncle]

I haven't read Inside Star Trek.  Sorry.

Well, the network execs told Solo "She's his GIRLFRIEND".  I imagine that was the problem Nicols really faced, too.

Go me!

Yes.

Ah, that's what confused me.  SKylar was Walter White's (expletive deleted) of a wife on Breaking Bad  Quinto's character on Heroes was SYlar.

My (dumb)mistake about Skylar (but I found her awesome.  Walter was the bad guy, y'know.)

[Valjiir1]

1).  Vulcans are probably extremely weak at creativity and imagination and things of that sort, which would actually be a severe limitation even in the sort of fields like pure science where their logical minds excel.

Part of this one was Mylochka's idea, though so long ago that we can't remember who thought of which parts.  I started thinking about this so long ago that it was from a gut feeling for which I couldn't have articulated a good defense.  Now, I'm 49 and can point out that Vulcans regulate their own thoughts so strictly that you just know they don't allow themselves the waste/luxury/stupidity of daydreaming.  You and I get a lot of good ideas out of the mostly stupid stuff our brain farts out when we're dreaming or looking at the sky not really thinking - mostly it's crap, but an occasional gold nugget of an idea survives closer scrutiny or is at least amenable to modification into something workable.

As it applies to science - a Vulcan would be less likely to have something like Archimedes "Eureka!" moment in the bathtub, wouldn't he?  Science history is surprisingly full of those moments of inspiration, like the fellow who finally figured out how to diagram the hexagonal structure of benzene molecules in a dream.  Vulcans would be grinds in their science - great with complex and dreary details, not as strong at developing new theories and new fields.  They'd make superior field and experimental researchers, provided they've thought of the right track, and you've definitely want one or two on your science team, even for purely theoretical work, but Dr. Sp'bob over there is never the guy with the "Eureka!", though he's of enormous help in fleshing out the new idea and making it work.

Of course, you realize you're assuming that Vulcan thought processes and creativity work like Humans' do....  I'm not certain it would.  Perhaps it's just as likely that the very quickness of a Vulcan's thought processes would produce the 'eureka' you're talking about - something that would look like a 'leap of intuition' to Humans, but would in reality be a very rapid train of logical thought, just as Human intuition would look like 'eureka' to them.

It's like the way evolution depends on some randomness creeping into the genome, and it implies that Vulcan science doesn't advance as quickly as one would have assumed for a race of Spocks.

Unless it was the Vulcans who came up with the solution to the gravity problem you mentioned...

Naturally, this would be an even greater problem in less inherently logical fields than science.  A Vulcan engineer or architect would tend to be superb at making truly functional designs for vehicles or building, but crap at true innovation.  When they see all the emotional races of inferior intellect muddling through with trial and error, it must rankle a bit.  It may even seem worth investigation.

It's likely that stupid Humans ever inventing anything that ever worked reliably at all bugs the average Vulcan to no end.
  -Which brings me to--

2.)  Vulcans have trouble getting along with other races, who all seem to be emotional, comparatively irrational, and a little dim by comparison.  It appears that they think poorly of humans, for example, and it stands to reason that they would.

My uncle married into a family of very stupid white trash a long time ago; they're loud, they're crude, they're flighty and they're ignorant.  -Rather like a microcosm of Texas, only dumber and less mature.  Nobody but my uncle liked having them around at holidays, and far from wanting to be in a club that would have my step-cousins, if one of them was the president, I'd call the Southern Poverty Law Center and leave town at least until they were all in jail.

-And when you're as smart and in control of yourself as a Vulcan, what use are Humans and the rest?  Can you imagine how they must love being stuck in the United Federation of Earth's-in-Charge?

I have one thing to say to that: IDIC

I'm suggesting that Spock might have been part of an investigation into the possibility of doing various things about observations 1.)-3.), just as the very best chess moves tend to do more than one thing at once (and we can count on Sarek being a grandmaster, can't we?).  More on that as I examine Spock's Starfleet career and his falling out with Sarek.  (Keep in mind that I'm not really married to what Spock was for - just that I'm sure there was a Big Plan to which he was crucial.  Also keep in mind that a Big Plan existing makes for a story, where no Big Plan, and nothing to his parent's relationship but boy meets girl and they had a baby, fullstop, doesn't.  More interesting my way.)

Or my way. which has all sorts of high melodrama involving sudden pon farr many parsecs from one's intended.....

I've been sorta depressed for months, and I cannot guarantee, day-to-day, that staying in the mood to keep writing up installments will happen until I've been feeling like it for longer.  Feedback helps me stay motivated, so keep it comin'...

Poor baby!  I'll do my best...

[Valjiir1]

I'm advancing Spock as a possible attempt to address Vulcan creativity issues, so Spock playing the lyrette in the rec room doesn't work as a counterexample. 

I do wonder why he plays an instrument - I suspect the fact that we only see him do it in company is significant.

I think I remember him playing in his cabin alone once: have to check it out, but I think it was in Amok Time.  But addressing the main point: surely there would be no logic in denying the calm state that can result from the ordered emotions that music can bring.  Just because Spock is neurotic about 'pure logic' doesn't mean ALL Vulcans are.

[Valjiir1]

And we don't know if it was Vulcan compositions, do we?

We don't know it wasn't, either.

[Buster's Uncle]

surely there would be no logic in denying the calm state that can result from the ordered emotions that music can bring.

IF -and I grant that I'm the one that keeps harping on not assuming the half-breed is typical- Spock's constant pretense that he's completely suppressed his feelings is representative of most Vulcans, it is illogical for them to enage in relaxing activities.  Witness his remarks on vactions in Shore Leave.  It's all of a piece.

[Buster's Uncle]

I think in the end, it comes down to what you assume about Vulcans as a whole.  If they are as cold and in control as their reputation would have it, my logical scans.  If they're all to varying to degrees like Spock, with a great deal of restraint in affect -and even internally- but still having some perceptible emotions, and, it follows, less control of their own thought processes, then the case for poor Vulcan imagination is weakened by no little bit.

I note that I've always tended toward the latter position, as Spock, Sarek, T'pau, T'pring and Stonn all, IMO, clearly displayed emotions, if expressed understatedly.  -Significant, given how briefly we knew any of them but Spock, and especially in the case of VIPs like Sarek and T'Pau.  (Incidentally, all the Vulcans in fake Star Trek are more of the same.)

[Buster's Uncle]

Funny coincidence that this particular article showed up in the science news today: http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=7325.0

[Valjiir1]

Ah, that's what confused me.  SKylar was Walter White's (expletive deleted) of a wife on Breaking Bad  Quinto's character on Heroes was SYlar.

My (dumb)mistake about Skylar (but I found her awesome.  Walter was the bad guy, y'know.)

Yeah, I know, but Skylar was about as self-serving and as dishonest with both Walt and herself as Carmela Soprano was with Tony.  Jesse lives! *hee hee!*

[Valjiir1]

Go me!

Yes.

 

[Valjiir1]

surely there would be no logic in denying the calm state that can result from the ordered emotions that music can bring.

IF -and I grant that I'm the one that keeps harping on not assuming the half-breed is typical- Spock's constant pretense that he's completely suppressed his feelings is representative of most Vulcans, it is illogical for them to enage in relaxing activities.  Witness his remarks on vactions in Shore Leave.  It's all of a piece.

And that's a HUGE "IF" in my book (or on my website *giggle*)  We see that other Vulcans express emotions (Stonn gets angry and impulsive, T'Pau's eyes flash with anger, her voice nearly drips contempt, Sarek's cold non-acknowledgement of his son speaks volumes of resentment and stubbornness.  It's clear Vulcans have emotions and where logical to do so, Vulcans express emotions.  It's only neurotic Spock who has to be so adamant about suppressing his.  And IMO playing chess is obviously relaxing for Spock.

[Valjiir1]

I think in the end, it comes down to what you assume about Vulcans as a whole.  If they are as cold and in control as their reputation would have it, my logical scans.  If they're all to varying to degrees like Spock, with a great deal of restraint in affect -and even internally- but still having some perceptible emotions, and, it follows, less control of their own thought processes, then the case for poor Vulcan imagination is weakened by no little bit.

IMO, the latter case, exactly.

I note that I've always tended toward the latter position, as Spock, Sarek, T'pau, T'pring and Stonn all, IMO, clearly displayed emotions, if expressed understatedly.  -Significant, given how briefly we knew any of them but Spock, and especially in the case of VIPs like Sarek and T'Pau.  (Incidentally, all the Vulcans in fake Star Trek are more of the same.)

Well thank the gods for that!  I was fixin' to smack you up side your head!    I, too, think that Vulcans DO have emotions (powerful ones, if we're to accept what is said about Vulcan's warrior past).  What Surak brought was not a way to eliminate emotion, but rather to subordinate it to logic; therefore, when it is logical to experience and express those emotions, Vulcans - quite logically - would.  Surak's Way would NOT have emotion play NO part in Vulcan life and decision, but would, rather, give emotion its proper place (which, for Surak, meant farther down on the list than would be usual for most Humans, but...)  We see this in T;Pring, Stonn, T'Pau, Sarek - but not in Spock.  Therefore, it seems logical ( ) to surmise that Spock is the odd man out, so to speak.

[Valjiir1]

Funny coincidence that this particular article showed up in the science news today: http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=7325.0

See, I KNEW I was right! 

[Buster's Uncle]

So by her testimony, I was right about the role creativity plays in even the driest of science - for that matter, an interview I posted later with a theoretical physicist had much about growing up in the 50s and his dreams of being an astronaut and stuff like that.  Interviews with scientists often do.

...

I wonder about Vulcan dreaming; you get the vague impression that Spock does a lot trance/power-napping and probably skips much of the dream sleep.  Are Vulcans so like us that it's even safe to assume they dream?

I note that I've always tended toward the latter position, as Spock, Sarek, T'pau, T'pring and Stonn all, IMO, clearly displayed emotions, if expressed understatedly.  -Significant, given how briefly we knew any of them but Spock, and especially in the case of VIPs like Sarek and T'Pau.  (Incidentally, all the Vulcans in fake Star Trek are more of the same.)

Well thank the gods for that!  I was fixin' to smack you up side your head!    I, too, think that Vulcans DO have emotions (powerful ones, if we're to accept what is said about Vulcan's warrior past).  What Surak brought was not a way to eliminate emotion, but rather to subordinate it to logic; therefore, when it is logical to experience and express those emotions, Vulcans - quite logically - would.  Surak's Way would NOT have emotion play NO part in Vulcan life and decision, but would, rather, give emotion its proper place (which, for Surak, meant farther down on the list than would be usual for most Humans, but...)  We see this in T;Pring, Stonn, T'Pau, Sarek - but not in Spock.  Therefore, it seems logical ( ) to surmise that Spock is the odd man out, so to speak.

And thus in my perception of Spock, he works harder at it than most Vulcans.  Humans are hardly more passionate than pre-Reformation Vulcan are reputed to be, so that shouldn't be his problem.  But the brain is a very complex system, and as Mylochka can attest, small alterations change a lot - undisciplined natural Vulcan psychology may be just different enough from Human that some very minor Human elements in his brain structure would prove quite troublesome.  One of the first things to go in a brain-injured person, by comparison, is emotional control.

And given that leaders and that sort of high-achieving public figure get held to a higher standard, in the kind of important family we surmise that Spock comes from, he'd have been under atypical pressure to try harder to begin with.  Poor boy got at least a double dose.

[Valjiir1]

I wonder about Vulcan dreaming; you get the vague impression that Spock does a lot trance/power-napping and probably skips much of the dream sleep.  Are Vulcans so like us that it's even safe to assume they dream?

I certainly assume so - though with meditation and the like, maybe they don't. Maybe they don't even 'sleep' like we do - that is for several hours at a stretch.  Hmmmm.....

I note that I've always tended toward the latter position, as Spock,

Well thank the gods for that!  I was fixin' to smack you up side your head!    I, too, think that Vulcans DO have emotions (powerful ones, if we're to accept what is said about Vulcan's warrior past).  What Surak brought was not a way to eliminate emotion, but rather to subordinate it to logic; therefore, when it is logical to experience and express those emotions, Vulcans - quite logically - would.  Surak's Way would NOT have emotion play NO part in Vulcan life and decision, but would, rather, give emotion its proper place (which, for Surak, meant farther down on the list than would be usual for most Humans, but...)  We see this in T;Pring, Stonn, T'Pau, Sarek - but not in Spock.  Therefore, it seems logical ( ) to surmise that Spock is the odd man out, so to speak.

And thus in my perception of Spock, he works harder at it than most Vulcans.  Humans are hardly more passionate than pre-Reformation Vulcan are reputed to be, so that shouldn't be his problem.  But the brain is a very complex system, and as Mylochka can attest, small alterations change a lot - undisciplined natural Vulcan psychology may be just different enough from Human that some very minor Human elements in his brain structure would prove quite troublesome.  One of the first things to go in a brain-injured person, by comparison, is emotional control.

And given that leaders and that sort of high-achieving public figure get held to a higher standard, in the kind of important family we surmise that Spock comes from, he'd have been under atypical pressure to try harder to begin with.  Poor boy got at least a double dose.

Indeed.  And I know about the brain-injury, emotional control thing:  my son-in-law was hit from behind late in 2012.  He was at a stoplight and got rammed at 55 mph.  The only thing that saved his life was the fact that he was in a Chevy Silverado pickup truck.  The bed of the truck was smashed nearly flat, but Sean lived, and even walked away - but he's had serious back, neck and shoulder problems with almost constant migraines ever since.

But I digress.

I agree and can imagine the pressure Spock is under all the time.  Oddly, I imagine that the Human parts of his consciousness would actually help with that, reminding him to take a deep breath, as it were, and that he is loved by Amanda no matter how far he falls from Vulcan's or his own ideals.