Valjiir

[Valka]

Okay, I see what you meant. It's a reasonable assumption that people who write tie-in fiction would at least be fans of the show they're writing about, but that's not always the case. To some, it's just another writing job. They need to be familiar with the characters and the basics of the in-story universe, but they don't necessarily have to be fans. As far as I'm concerned, there are some things about Star Trek that I just don't give a damn what the studios said, or any of the producers, directors, movie writers, etc. said - Diane Duane's version of some things makes so much more sense than what was onscreen. The Romulans are but one example.

I've had the chance to discuss - argue, actually - with some of the novel writers over at TrekBBS. To me, Greg Cox's version of what happened to Khan and his people on Ceti Alpha VI just seems right. But try to argue canon/continuity with Christopher Bennett... well, there's a reason he's on my ignore list.

As for what else is canon... yikes. Enter those conversations there at your own risk.

[Valjiir1]

Okay, I see what you meant. It's a reasonable assumption that people who write tie-in fiction would at least be fans of the show they're writing about, but that's not always the case. To some, it's just another writing job. They need to be familiar with the characters and the basics of the in-story universe, but they don't necessarily have to be fans. As far as I'm concerned, there are some things about Star Trek that I just don't give a damn what the studios said, or any of the producers, directors, movie writers, etc. said - Diane Duane's version of some things makes so much more sense than what was onscreen. The Romulans are but one example.

I'm with you on the 'not giving a damn' thing, but tell me: since I've not read Ms. Duane's work - what about her Romulans is so compelling to you?

I've had the chance to discuss - argue, actually - with some of the novel writers over at TrekBBS. To me, Greg Cox's version of what happened to Khan and his people on Ceti Alpha VI just seems right. But try to argue canon/continuity with Christopher Bennett... well, there's a reason he's on my ignore list.

As for what else is canon... yikes. Enter those conversations there at your own risk.

I tend not to argue canon beyond the 3 seasons of ToS: as far as I'm concerned, everything after that which I don't agree with is easily ascribed to an alternate timeline.  I'm fond of alternate timelines - after all, I've spent most of my adult life concentrating on just such an alternate 

Surprised?

One thing I'll never understand is how and why people can assert that their interpretation of Star Trek is THE One True Right and Only Way.  Sure, Valjiir is 'truth' for me, but even Vajiir has its alternates, which is fine by me.  And if someone wants to argue canon with me - well, they can do that.  I don't mind if they believe something that is at odds with what I've established as real for Valjiir.  They're entitled to their interpretation, regardless of how wrong I may think it is.   I enjoy a good discussion on the whys of their interpretations because it can give me insights into my own writing - contrary to what some may say, I firmly believe authors never really know EVERYTHING that's in their work.  Readers can surprise us with their insights, just as some little throw-away line that sounds good in one story can become a MAJOR plot-line or character trait YEARS later.  Then the writer goes back and reads the throw-away line and says, "Hmmm, so THAT'S why I put that in there!" 

[Buster's Uncle]

That's exactly how I've come to look at ST novels - that they're fanfic somebody got paid for.  FWIW, I read every novel published (including Mission to Horatius, and most of them more than once) up to around when TNG happened; I don't have to tell you guys how TNG happening sorta ruined it for a lot of Trek fandom.

I had to google Spock's World, 'cause it seemed familiar, but I see it came out in 89, which is roughly two years after Mylochka stopped getting everything published.  -I had hoped to turn up a copy, we still have everything, and refresh my memory - but no dice.  I do remember The Romulan Way, which threatened to be The Final Reflection for Romulans, but was partly ruined by a weak, fan-wanky, ending.  The Romulan history stuff that made up the bulk of the novel was quite strong, though.  Duane's pet Romulan commander defeating her enemies with sarcasm, not so much.

The Final Reflection was perfect, BTW.

[Buster's Uncle]

To me, Greg Cox's version of what happened to Khan and his people on Ceti Alpha VI just seems right.

After my time, but has anyone else realized that either there were invisible children aboard the Botany Bay, or Joachim and company were all 15 or less and matured really young?

[Valjiir1]

To me, Greg Cox's version of what happened to Khan and his people on Ceti Alpha VI just seems right.

After my time, but has anyone else realized that either there were invisible children aboard the Botany Bay, or Joachim and company were all 15 or less and matured really young?

*snort, snicker, chortle guffaw!*  Maybe part of the genetic engineering of the people from Space Seed was shortened gestation periods and faster maturity? Plus the 'Master Race' Blonde, blue-eyed genes?  Which is why Ricardo Montalban had to have white hair, 'cause his clearly NOT Caucasian look wasn't cuttin' it?

On the topic of the pro novels, I really don't have anything intelligent to contribute since, as I've said, I've read only a very few of them.  I HAVE read all of the James Blish and David Gerrold novelizations of Tos amd the animated series, if that's worth anything 

[Buster's Uncle]

Wrath, for all of being a beautifully-crafted thrill ride, was still profoundly flawed.  -And being the last movie I liked very much is a lot of why I've turned into what Green1 calls a "bittervet" who doesn't count anything after Turnabout Intruder as real -and would rather throw out Turnabout Intruder, too.

[Buster's Uncle]

Cher, have you been keeping up with Star Trek Continues?  The two episodes they've put out in under a year are pretty good.

[Valka]

Okay, I see what you meant. It's a reasonable assumption that people who write tie-in fiction would at least be fans of the show they're writing about, but that's not always the case. To some, it's just another writing job. They need to be familiar with the characters and the basics of the in-story universe, but they don't necessarily have to be fans. As far as I'm concerned, there are some things about Star Trek that I just don't give a damn what the studios said, or any of the producers, directors, movie writers, etc. said - Diane Duane's version of some things makes so much more sense than what was onscreen. The Romulans are but one example.

I'm with you on the 'not giving a damn' thing, but tell me: since I've not read Ms. Duane's work - what about her Romulans is so compelling to you?

You've been missing out on some good stories. The first one I read is The Romulan Way. It's a McCoy-centric story, in which McCoy is sent to make contact with a deep-cover Federation agent who failed to report in. Since McCoy was part of the mission to steal the cloaking device, he's on the Romulans' "wanted" list, and that's the perfect way to get McCoy in place to find out what happened to the missing operative.

Besides likeable characters, what jumped out at me was that not everything was "Romulan-this, Romulan-that." The Romulans refer to themselves as Rihannsu, and their two principle planets are ch'Rihan and ch'Havran. They're fleshed out as people, not cookie-cutter figures with identical clothing, identical hairstyles, and no personality.

I haven't read all her Rihannsu books yet, but The Romulan Way and My Enemy, My Ally (in which we learn what happened to the Romulan Commander from "The Enterprise Incident") are both excellent. Spock's World can be taken as two books in one, if you don't want to read the "historical vignettes" that take place in Vulcan's past. These vignettes follow life on Vulcan from the prehistoric time when primitive Vulcans had to cope with their planet suddenly being fried into a desert due to an unusually violent solar flare that stripped away most of the planet's vegetation, surface water, and some of the atmosphere. Later vignettes explore how Vulcan society was changed by the various adaptations of telepathy, the eyelid that prevented Spock's permanent blindness, how the Vulcans' penchant for violent warfare nearly destroyed their world (and T'Khut, the twin planet that some have mistakenly referred to as a "moon"), and Surak's realization that unless a drastic change is made, the species won't survive. The Vulcans who refuse to accept logic as a way of life opt to follow S'task and leave the planet in a fleet of ships - eventually becoming the Rihannsu (Romulans).

The part of the novel in the "here and now" of the 23rd century has some strange and dirty politics going on, as some Vulcans have managed to bring about a situation where Vulcan has to vote on whether or not to secede from the Federation. This is where we learn that T'Pau is Sarek's mother, Spock's grandmother, and the clan matriarch.

One of the reasons I found the novel so compelling is because of the notion that Vulcan might actually secede. For decades, Canada has had to cope with separatists in both Quebec and Alberta, who think their respective provinces would be better off out of the country. As an Albertan, I can say that the separatists from my province are not in the least bit worth taking seriously, but those in Quebec have managed to cause a great deal of trouble and annoyance over the past several decades. Some of the questions and issues raised in Spock's World made me have an 'ah-ha!' moment and think about some things I'd never considered before in the RL situation my country has been in.

Oh, and I mentioned likeable characters... Kirk gets a Horta crewmember! 

I've had the chance to discuss - argue, actually - with some of the novel writers over at TrekBBS. To me, Greg Cox's version of what happened to Khan and his people on Ceti Alpha VI just seems right. But try to argue canon/continuity with Christopher Bennett... well, there's a reason he's on my ignore list.

As for what else is canon... yikes. Enter those conversations there at your own risk.

I tend not to argue canon beyond the 3 seasons of ToS: as far as I'm concerned, everything after that which I don't agree with is easily ascribed to an alternate timeline.  I'm fond of alternate timelines - after all, I've spent most of my adult life concentrating on just such an alternate 

Surprised?

One thing I'll never understand is how and why people can assert that their interpretation of Star Trek is THE One True Right and Only Way.  Sure, Valjiir is 'truth' for me, but even Vajiir has its alternates, which is fine by me.  And if someone wants to argue canon with me - well, they can do that.  I don't mind if they believe something that is at odds with what I've established as real for Valjiir.  They're entitled to their interpretation, regardless of how wrong I may think it is.   I enjoy a good discussion on the whys of their interpretations because it can give me insights into my own writing - contrary to what some may say, I firmly believe authors never really know EVERYTHING that's in their work.  Readers can surprise us with their insights, just as some little throw-away line that sounds good in one story can become a MAJOR plot-line or character trait YEARS later.  Then the writer goes back and reads the throw-away line and says, "Hmmm, so THAT'S why I put that in there!" 

Christopher Bennett has a really pedantic way of talking down to people that some there find very annoying. I was sufficiently annoyed that I ended up telling him he was acting like a jerk (you can swear all you want on that forum - but don't ever call anybody a jerk or you'll end up with an infraction for trolling...  ). To some people, if it's on TV or in a movie, it's canon. They figure that if Gene Roddenberry only said it in a writer's guide, it's not canon. They say pro novels are not canon (some of them should be, in my opinion, but whatever...). Some there can have endless arguments over the canon status of TAS.

Anyway, for me Enterprise (the series) and the Abrams movies do not exist. Enterprise contradicts so much of what was already established, and the rest doesn't make sense. And when the most likeable character is the beagle, why not just watch Charlie Brown instead? As for the Abrams movies... I forced myself to watch the first one, a couple of years after it came out (it was on the Space Channel), and because I caught so much flak for having been very vocal about it on TrekBBS, I used my free "on-demand" rental from the cable company to see the "Into Darkness" movie. It didn't improve my opinion of this "reboot" - it's still crap.

There were some part of TNG I liked (shame they killed Tasha off; she was my favorite character), some parts of DS9 (the friendship between Julian and O'Brien), and I loved most of Voyager ("Threshold" does not exist. It's even worse than "Spock's Brain.").

Movie-wise, I pretty much ignore the existence of STV. The other TOS movies get argued about, whether or not TMP takes place in the same universe as the others, and now the blatant way Abrams ripped off TWoK when he did "Into Darkness." So for me, the movies are #1-4, 6, and there are some parts of "First Contact" I don't mind. I liked the character of Lily. They should have found someone else to play Cochrane. The rest of the movies are not canon to me, they don't exist. To me they are completely pointless.

To me, Greg Cox's version of what happened to Khan and his people on Ceti Alpha VI just seems right.

After my time, but has anyone else realized that either there were invisible children aboard the Botany Bay, or Joachim and company were all 15 or less and matured really young?

I'm not holding what Harve Bennett & Nicholas Meyer put onscreen against Greg Cox, who had nothing to do with it. Most of his Khan trilogy takes place on Earth, and involves Gary Seven and Roberta Lincoln. Only the last volume really gets into what happened on Ceti Alpha V/VI.

*snort, snicker, chortle guffaw!*  Maybe part of the genetic engineering of the people from Space Seed was shortened gestation periods and faster maturity? Plus the 'Master Race' Blonde, blue-eyed genes?  Which is why Ricardo Montalban had to have white hair, 'cause his clearly NOT Caucasian look wasn't cuttin' it?

On the topic of the pro novels, I really don't have anything intelligent to contribute since, as I've said, I've read only a very few of them.  I HAVE read all of the James Blish and David Gerrold novelizations of Tos amd the animated series, if that's worth anything 

I got called every kind of racist because I mentioned on TrekBBS that if they were going to retell the meeting of Kirk and Khan, they should have found an actor who resembled Ricardo Montalban's portrayal in the TV series. It was completely pointless to make Benedict Cumberwhatever's character Khan - the story would have worked just as well (*snicker*) with him remaining John Harrison, rather than Khan.

BTW, it was Alan Dean Foster who wrote the Animated Series novelizations, not David Gerrold.

[Buster's Uncle]

Now I have to make Mylochka do some Charlie Brown/Star Trek cartoons...

[Valka]

I seem to recall some Peanuts/ST comics from waaay back called "Sp'charliebrownak". They were cute.

[Buster's Uncle]

That sounds very familiar.

[Valjiir1]

Wrath, for all of being a beautifully-crafted thrill ride, was still profoundly flawed.  -And being the last movie I liked very much is a lot of why I've turned into what Green1 calls a "bittervet" who doesn't count anything after Turnabout Intruder as real -and would rather throw out Turnabout Intruder, too.

I agree about Wrath, and I thought Save The Whales had a certain Trouble with Tribbles charm (and I just ADORE the DS9 version of that!), and as should be obvious by now, I'm with you on the pretty much ignoring part.  Guess I'm a 'bittervet' too.

[Valjiir1]

Cher, have you been keeping up with Star Trek Continues?  The two episodes they've put out in under a year are pretty good.

Hmmmm - I think we saw the first one, but since Dave and I like to watch that stuff together it's hard to find the time.  Thanks for the reminder.

[Buster's Uncle]

They released another episode two weeks ago - I posted it here:  http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=1319.msg42624#msg42624

[Buster's Uncle]

Sp'charliebrownak

Ah.  Found them on Deviant Art: