Valjiir

[Valjiir1]

Peter is mentioned in a couple of the Valjiir stories, so he does exist there, and yes, he's Jim Kirk's nephew.  Just very difference from the portrayal in New Voyages.

[Valka]

I will have to re-read and refresh my memory.

(Most of my fanfic reading has been Voyager-related lately...)

[Valjiir1]

Just to be clear here:  You  mentioned "Shadow Captain" stories, and I don't think Peter Kirk is mentioned in that particular set of stories, but he IS mentioned in other VALJIIR stories.

[Buster's Uncle]

Ooh!  Activity while I was writing.  I like activity.

I have a theory about Spock and his family involving that...

Spill, spill!

In discussing this or that about the background of the Star Trek universe with Mylochka, I say "We don't actually know that much about" [X] so often that she's tuned it into a joke.

X more than once equaled Vulcans.  Almost everything in real Star Trek that we think we know Vulcans is actually what we know about Spock.  (And of that, one thing that's pretty obvious is that he tells social lies about himself/Vulcans when he's embarrassed.  Who believed him the time he claimed he didn't have any feelings to hurt?  He asserts outlandishly absolute things of that stripe all. the. freakin'. time. when he's dealing with bigoted coworkers [or the latest sweet young thing from outside the Federation who's set her cap for him.])



The short answer is:
Spock's dad is Ambassador to the Federation (We don't actually know much about the Federation outside Starfleet; it appears likely be an interstellar treaty organization that coalesced ad-hoc into an interstellar government, in which case the role of "Ambassador to" could have evolved into more like sole "Senator from" in the interstellar legislature).  A VERY important person, if so.

T'Pau being the only person to ever turn down a seat on the Federation council could make her nothing but a notorious crank, for all we know - but given the tone of how it was said, and Kirk/McCoy's subsequent manner towards her, we can assume (with a high level of confidence) that again, a VERY important person.

(Incidentally- she could easily be, instead of Sarek's mother as in my headcannon and your fanfic continuity, alternately T'PRING's gramma, or -actually more logically for the Judge of the Wedding- an unrelated neutral party.  Both alternatives still imply that Spock's family is of extremely high status for someone as important as THE T'Pau to officiate.)

My conclusion -for this, and a million other little reasons I'll go into in future posts- is that Spock is the Vulcan equivalent of a Kennedy (if the Kennedys had been around a lot longer and drank less, anyway) that produces a lot of important scientists/administrators/leaders, etc., possibly going back thousands of years.  Vulcan just GOTS ta be a meritocracy, right?



Some of this, I'm sure, you thought of and/or contradicted 30+ years ago, and the edifice of what I've come to believe about Spock and his people is absolutely a house of cards of supposition/interpretation - but I fancy the cards fit together mighty well and often make better sense of cannon.  Since it's enough to fill a couple of chapters, and I've not been bursting with talkativeness for months, I'll try to make the job of relating it manageable by writing a little every day.

Comments welcome, everyone -keep in mind that I'm less likely to respond to stuff posted overnight, that I see while I'm still waking up, and that we're going to be patient with each other, remembering that all us old Trekkers are walking around with 40 years of personal headcannon that we're each pretty married to...

Next: I guess I'll talk probably about Spock and Sarek's relationship...

[Valjiir1]

I think I can agree with almost everything you've said here.  Yes, Spock's father and his family seem to be Vulcan Kennedys - VERY important politically.  While I can see the case for the old b - I mean T'Pau being T'Pring's mother, I don't buy it because of the venom in T'Pau's voice when she asks Spock "Is thee Vulcan or is thee Human?"  That sounds too personal for it to be just a general Vulcan distaste for his hybrid nature, at least to me.  There are stories on the Valjiir site that give information from Valjiir's canon about Vulcan; Logic's End, Waterfall (which is a very tiny vignette), Starcrossed, First Contact, It's Not Nice To Fool Mother Nature, A Sordid Affair, An Old Fashioned Man, and Days of Our Fathers if anyone's interested - though there are likely tidbits to be found here and there throughout most of the stories 

Thanks for your answer, and I'll be waiting (patiently - or at least as patient as I can get  ) for other insights into your headcannon.

[Buster's Uncle]

You definitely get the idea that she doesn't have a sky-high opinion of humans - or that she, at the very least, is hard on everyone.  But it's hard to believe T'Pring didn't get tongue-slashed into oblivion, if the latter.  Where's the logic in wanting Stonn, after all?

It's nice to chat about this stuff with somebody besides the usual...

[Valjiir1]

Well, in ToS , T'Pring clearly chose Stonn because she assumed she could easily control him - Stonn's own childhood betrothed must have died or committed some other offense that broke the proto-bond, and let's face it -  how would someone that homely ever attract anyone else?  Naw, I'm just being snotty - even though he IS damn homely.  Who can fathom the mind of a [complaint or disagreeable woman] like T'Pring?  I mean, she said she thought Spock would not want her because she dared to Challenge, and even if he DID, he'd go away and she'd have his name, lands, and Stonn would still be there, and Spock said her logic was flawless.  I don't see it myself.  Maybe Vulcan logic is different than Earth logic (as I hear Mork saying, "Earth humor; arr arr arr!"  ) 

But as to why Stonn in particular?  That's anybody's guess - and T'Pau DID have to tell him to shut up.  Of course, that could lend credence to the idea that she was T'Pring's gramma - since, as we both agree, Spock's a Kennedy and she might just rather have HIM for a grandson-in-law (even if he IS a half-breed) than little Mr. Nothing Stonn.

No, I take it back.  She's clearly upset about Spock's hybrid nature.  And our canons agree that she's Spock's grandmother, right? 

And yes, it surely is nice to talk to someone about this!

[Valka]

Just to be clear here:  You  mentioned "Shadow Captain" stories, and I don't think Peter Kirk is mentioned in that particular set of stories, but he IS mentioned in other VALJIIR stories.

Okay, thanks for clarifying that I'm not completely mixed up.

Part of my confusion stems from having read the print-form Valjiir stories years ago - I read and re-read those stories many times. When I was told on TrekBBS about your website and the many more stories (and rewrites of the originals), I realized I'd have to "unlearn" what happened before, and pay more attention. And somehow in all this, Peter Kirk has escaped my memories.

The last time I visited for some reading time, I was glad to finally understand the situation with Ruth and Terry. Was that part of the storyline always planned out that way? (trying not to spoil it for anyone reading this who hasn't read those particular stories yet)

As far as T'Pau being Spock's grandmother, didn't Diane Duane set up Spock's World with that assumption?

[Buster's Uncle]

he'd go away and she'd have his name, lands,

And you mention a point that I hadn't considered in support of my thesis.  Spock's (jawbreaker-starting-with-X in Valjiir) name and lands are something worth having.

[Valjiir1]

You're most welcome.

I can see how having the print versions in your head could prevent some problems with Valjiir canon.  It IS an evolving universe after all. 

Yes, Ruth and Terry were ALWAYS planned that way.  It was really tough trying to keep that from readers for so long.  My former editor wanted to get all the stories before the revelation written yesterday so she could print it.  But t'was not to be.  We'll all just be grateful for the website, huh?

As far as Ms. Duane's fan fiction, I've read very little of the 'legimately' published stuff. Now K/S fanzines..... (just for the sex, really.  I could never really see K/S as a real things.  I will admit, thought, some of the stories were VERY well written, and a few even had a version of the relationship I could accept as part of an alternate history).

[Valjiir1]

he'd go away and she'd have his name, lands,

And you mention a point that I hadn't considered in support of my thesis.  Spock's (jawbreaker-starting-with-X in Valjiir) name and lands are something worth having.

Indeed. Who wouldn't want to be a Kennedy?   So how does this particular point support your thesis?

[Buster's Uncle]

The part of the thesis I meant being that Spock is from a big deal family - I'd just never considered T'Pring's implication that they were valuable in that context.  His (family?) name, and real estate worth owning belonging to someone who hasn't even lived on Vulcan for over 13 years.  Alternate explainations are possible, but it fits with important-rich family mighty well.  Quite an oversight on my part.

(We don't actually have any idea how old Spock is, y'know.  We know Sarek is just over 100, and Spock had been in Starfleet long enough to have made lieutenant (and third in command under Pike?) 13 years ago, but not long enough for such a capable and reliable officer -albeit fiercely unambitious- to have been forced as high as captain.  We know Amanda looks middle-aged, but not how old that tends to be for a human woman of that time with access to future gerontology  - we can't be sure she's not older than Sarek.  Spock's got to be more than twenty and less than 85, and no way to be sure at all where in there he falls.  If you count TAS Yesteryear, he was pretty closely equivalent to a pure human six year-old at six, and it's absolutely cannon that he was engaged to T'Pring at seven - [given the seven-year Pon Farr cycle, one surmises that the 14 year-olds have to be locked up for a few weeks and even the 21 & 28 year-olds go through interesting spells unless/until they settle down and marry].  Spock hadn't skipped enough Pon Farrs to be shocked when he did have one, but I have trouble imaging him being under 30, somehow.  [The nature of the falling-out with Sarek tends to support the younger end of the range, too.]  Vulcans are aliens, and we just don't know anything like everything about Spock, let alone the rest.)

[Valka]

You're most welcome.

I can see how having the print versions in your head could prevent some problems with Valjiir canon.  It IS an evolving universe after all. 

Yes, Ruth and Terry were ALWAYS planned that way.  It was really tough trying to keep that from readers for so long.  My former editor wanted to get all the stories before the revelation written yesterday so she could print it.  But t'was not to be.  We'll all just be grateful for the website, huh?

Indeed.

I'm happy that a loose end that perplexed me 25 years ago is now tied up neatly.

As far as Ms. Duane's fan fiction, I've read very little of the 'legimately' published stuff. Now K/S fanzines..... (just for the sex, really.  I could never really see K/S as a real things.  I will admit, thought, some of the stories were VERY well written, and a few even had a version of the relationship I could accept as part of an alternate history).

I'm not sure what you mean by her fanfiction. I'm referring to the pro novel Spock's World, where part of the story takes place in Vulcan's past and the main story in the 'present' we're all familiar with. The point is clearly made that T'Pau is Sarek's mother, and with her death, Amanda would become the clan matriarch.

Are you saying that this novel was originally published as fanfic?

If you count TAS Yesteryear, he was pretty closely equivalent to a pure human six year-old at six, and it's absolutely cannon that he was engaged to T'Pring at seven - [given the seven-year Pon Farr cycle, one surmises that the 14 year-olds have to be locked up for a few weeks and even the 21 & 28 year-olds go through interesting spells unless/until they settle down and marry].  Spock hadn't skipped enough Pon Farrs to be shocked when he did have one, but I have trouble imaging him being under 30, somehow.  [The nature of the falling-out with Sarek tends to support the younger end of the range, too.]  Vulcans are aliens, and we just don't know anything like everything about Spock, let alone the rest.)

I remember a well-reasoned essay in Best of Trek (sorry, don't recall which one or who wrote it) where the author's point was that Spock, as a Human/Vulcan hybrid, matured at a different rate than T'Pring did (as she was pure Vulcan). Because of the telepathic bond that they had at age 7, Spock didn't go into pon farr until T'Pring was both physically and mentally ready.

(yes, I know ST III makes a mess of that reasoning, but maybe if Spock's reborn 7-year-old self had been bonded, his older self wouldn't have needed Saavik's help...)

[Valjiir1]

Sorry, I consider the pro novels "fan fiction" too.  Yeah, I'm showing my age and ignorance, but I just assumed even the pro writers were fans, so....   Mea culpa

BUncle - I's always assumed Spock (and other Vulcans) didn't worry about pon farr until puberty - and considering that Vulcans clearly live to be over 100, I also assumed that puberty for them came at a much later age than it does for Humans.  If I had to guess, I'd say for most Vulcans, that's at about 40-50.  Spock's came earlier because he's half Human. My guess at his age in ToS is around 36.  And I don't much care what Search For Spock says - I really don't consider anything after the animated series as being canon.  Yeah, I know, I'm a Neanderthal....

[Valjiir1]

The part of the thesis I meant being that Spock is from a big deal family - I'd just never considered T'Pring's implication that they were valuable in that context.  His (family?) name, and real estate worth owning belonging to someone who hasn't even lived on Vulcan for over 13 years.  Alternate explainations are possible, but it fits with important-rich family mighty well.  Quite an oversight on my part.

Gotcha.

(We don't actually have any idea how old Spock is, y'know.  We know Sarek is just over 100, and Spock had been in Starfleet long enough to have made lieutenant (and third in command under Pike?) 13 years ago, but not long enough for such a capable and reliable officer -albeit fiercely unambitious- to have been forced as high as captain.  We know Amanda looks middle-aged, but not how old that tends to be for a human woman of that time with access to future gerontology  - we can't be sure she's not older than Sarek.  Spock's got to be more than twenty and less than 85, and no way to be sure at all where in there he falls.  If you count TAS Yesteryear, he was pretty closely equivalent to a pure human six year-old at six, and it's absolutely cannon that he was engaged to T'Pring at seven - [given the seven-year Pon Farr cycle, one surmises that the 14 year-olds have to be locked up for a few weeks and even the 21 & 28 year-olds go through interesting spells unless/until they settle down and marry].  Spock hadn't skipped enough Pon Farrs to be shocked when he did have one, but I have trouble imaging him being under 30, somehow.  [The nature of the falling-out with Sarek tends to support the younger end of the range, too.]  Vulcans are aliens, and we just don't know anything like everything about Spock, let alone the rest.)

True, but I don't see pon farr as starting at 14 - or 21 - or 28 - or even, for full Vulcans, at 35.  The pre-bond is only to set the minds together, so that when the male DOES experience the mating drive, the female will answer his call.  The 7 year cycle only comes in AFTER the first hormonal change.  At least, that's how I've always seen it.

I agree that the falling out between Sarek and Spock puts Spock's age - as I postulated in my earlier post - around 36 or so.  If he was 18 - a young adult - when he and Sarek stopped talking, and it was, as Amanda says, 18 years since they've talked as father and son, that makes him  about 36 during Journey to Babel