Bugs, flaws, and other things to be fixed: Drones formula

[Nexii]

Ok thanks! So you're saying that the specialists get converted to two phantom drones rather than one superdrone.  I'm not sure that really makes intuitive sense though.  What's the reasoning behind specialists affecting the number of superdrones vs phantom drones?  I assume this is partly to mitigate all specialist bases that don't riot?  I guess what I'm asking is why not convert all those phantom drones into a lesser amount of superdrones?  Essentially this weakens Psych from specialists to an extreme degree because two normal drones is worse than a super drone.

And yea I agree this is perhaps an extreme example, but these scenarios do come up more than you'd think.  If you're playing a war-based game on Transcend you are going to have a lot of B-drones and C-drones to deal with.  I guess it wouldn't really be such an issue if there was a way to know if a base was due to riot on the next turn.  But when all you can see in game is non-Drones and specialists in your base, you can only hope and assume it won't riot.  I think it's a good fix in terms of difficulty but I find I'm guessing a lot on the riots

[Yitzi]

Ok thanks! So you're saying that the specialists get converted to two phantom drones rather than one superdrone.  I'm not sure that really makes intuitive sense though.  What's the reasoning behind specialists affecting the number of superdrones vs phantom drones?  I assume this is partly to mitigate all specialist bases that don't riot?  I guess what I'm asking is why not convert all those phantom drones into a lesser amount of superdrones?  Essentially this weakens Psych from specialists to an extreme degree because two normal drones is worse than a super drone.

And yea I agree this is perhaps an extreme example, but these scenarios do come up more than you'd think.  If you're playing a war-based game on Transcend you are going to have a lot of B-drones and C-drones to deal with.  I guess it wouldn't really be such an issue if there was a way to know if a base was due to riot on the next turn.  But when all you can see in game is non-Drones and specialists in your base, you can only hope and assume it won't riot.  I think it's a good fix in terms of difficulty but I find I'm guessing a lot on the riots

Actually, I've thought a bit more, and realized that even if phantom superdrones could happen, you'd still see these effects.  The reason is that psych (or anything that creates talents) will turn all superdrones into drones before removing any drones, which will affect police.

Basically, police are double-strength in the really bad cases where you have superdrones, and psych attacks superdrones before normal drones whereas facilities try to get rid of as many drones as they can even if it means leaving superdrones.

As for seeing whether the base will riot on the next turn...I think I'll add (probably in either 2.4 or 2.5) an "enhanced information" option which shows, when you open the base screen, things such as the "drone balance" (basically drones of all sorts minus talents; the base will riot if this is positive) and free supply remaining.

[Nexii]

Yea.  I also think that how police can crush superdrones as good as normal drones might be a bit too powerful.  If that sample game showed me anything its just how crucial (I'd argue non-optional) running a positive POLICE SE is - and not just as this extreme version of Yang.  At +3 POLICE SE and 3 NLM units (this only costs 30 mins), thats 9 superdrones crushed (36 PSYCH equiv!!) and a per turn upkeep of say 3 minerals (0 with good SUPPORT SE/Clean).  Compare with Rec Commons at 40 minerals and an upkeep of 1 energy, which only pacifies 2 normal drones.  Even with Holo and Tree Farm, PSYCH feels rather weak in comparison. 

I might suggest toning down B and C drones a bit to compensate?

Sort of on the side topic of drones and drone modding, I've modified Democracy to be the -5 POLICE SE.  I wanted an alternative mechanic to the base FM where +2 ECON is used to run 20%+ PSYCH to compensate.   So I gave it ++TALENT instead (which as you noted suffers from the same effects).  The problem is ++TALENT while good early doesn't scale up at all like POLICE does.  NLM mostly, but things like Brood Pit help reach that +3 POLICE for the tripling.  If you're -5 POLICE then really you have no hope of even getting to -1 for even 1 military unit per base later game.  I assume it'd be difficult to add any new SE settings like TALENT/X citizens or DRONE/X citizens.  But how about if +TALENT from SE was modified by PSYCH facilities?  It's essentially like +2 PSYCH per base anyways...only that it seems tacked on separately.

Also to add: that would be awesome to get in 2.4/2.5.  I really like the challenge of the drone fixes, but they sort of brought some new display bugs with them :/

[Yitzi]

Yea.  I also think that how police can crush superdrones as good as normal drones might be a bit too powerful.  If that sample game showed me anything its just how crucial (I'd argue non-optional) running a positive POLICE SE is - and not just as this extreme version of Yang.

Not quite.  With large bases, good EFFIC, and not too many conquests, a significant psych modifier can be worth enough to make Police State not worth it.  High EFFIC is desirable anyway for a more pacifist game...the only time POLICE is really important is when you're conquering a lot...which is sort of what Police State and Thought Control seem to be designed for.

I think there was a discussion, and the general consensus was that police should work against superdrones like normal drones; barring a heavy conquest spree or a lot of small bases, Police State will generally not be worth its efficiency downside.

And that especially goes if you play at a more "normal" difficulty; Transcend is supposed to be the really really hard difficulty, so naturally it'll skew things somewhat.

I might suggest toning down B and C drones a bit to compensate?

Conquest drones aren't really that heavy; in your example it was only 2.  Your 16 drones broke down as follows:
5 from base size.  (On librarian, which I consider "normal" difficulty, it would have been only 3.)
2 from conquest (on librarian, it would have been only 1.)
2 from -TALENT.  (This would not occur in the normal game.)
1 from your Zakharov-like drones.  (And Zak is strong in the early game anyway; those drones are supposed to be a substantial balancing factor.)
6 from bureaucracy (and it would've been more if bureaucracy drones weren't capped at base size).

You had a total of 51 bases with 0 EFFIC, of course you're going to have drone problems.  That is not a normal situation (and it's fairly obvious that anyone in the actual situation of the Hive in that game could win extremely easily).

So no, it's not just in this extreme version of Yang that police is so strong...but it is only in extreme cases like this one (essentially when you've got a ton of bases, many of them captured, with low efficiency)...and it's not such a bad thing for POLICE to be important in certain special situations (after all, we don't want Police State to keep being useless, do we?)

The revised drone rules were, among other things, intended to help Police State have an important niche other than just for Yang.  So now it has one.

Consider, on the other hand, a more peaceful faction, who would like to run Democracy/Market or Democracy/Green:
-Firstly, he's not going to have such a ridiculous number of bases, since he's not conquering everyone.  20 bases is a strong faction on a normal-sized map if he's not well into conquering the world.  (Unless he's ICS'ing, but I think we all agree that making ICS unviable for peaceful factions is not a bad thing.)
-If he's running Market, he's got +2 EFFIC; even on Transcend, that gives him 9 bases before the first bureaucracy cap, so he'll have 1 bureaucracy drone in most bases, 2 in a few.  No conquest drones since he's peaceful, so he's got 1 drone per citizen.  With a tree farm and hologram theater, that's just 1 energy-to-psych per citizen, meaning that Market (+1 energy per worker) is effectively completely solving his drone problem (but of course rec+holo+hospital is worth 5, plus means he needs even less energy to keep his citizens happy, so he's clearly coming out ahead).
-If he's running Green, then he's got +4 EFFIC, so 12 bases before the first bureaucracy cap, so 1/3 of his bases will have no bureaucracy at all.  He also gets 1 police unit (NLM unless playing Gaians or Angels), so that's worth a bit too.  Add in psych facilities and devote a bit of energy to psych, and it should still be easily manageable.

So no, Police is not remotely mandatory...it's only mandatory if you're going on a conquering spree.  Thus, we have the following roles for the Politics choice:
-Police State is for conquering factions weaker than you; SUPPORT helps you keep a support-free army (rehoming troops to conquered bases as needed), and POLICE helps you keep them pacified even when psych facilities were destroyed.  But between the wide-spread empire and low EFFIC, give up on getting a decent research rate (at least until you assimilate the bases and rebuild the psych facilities so you can switch to Dem and tech on an empire twice the size of your rivals.)
-Democracy is for peaceful expansion and growth.
-Fundamentalism, with the boost to morale and probe security, is good for fighting an empire roughly your own size.

Sort of on the side topic of drones and drone modding, I've modified Democracy to be the -5 POLICE SE.  I wanted an alternative mechanic to the base FM where +2 ECON is used to run 20%+ PSYCH to compensate.

Keep in mind that that compensates only for the POLICE penalty (there are ecodamage modding options now that can worm rape depend more on your PLANET rating than your ability to stay under an ever-growing mineral cap), and only if you don't have a lot of troops outside your territory.  With an army outside your territory (and no punishment spheres working on negative POLICE), 20% psych isn't going to cut it.  Which is the whole idea.

If you're -5 POLICE then really you have no hope of even getting to -1 for even 1 military unit per base later game.

You could get +2 with Brood Pit plus Police State plus Thought Control plus Ascetic Virtues.

I assume it'd be difficult to add any new SE settings like TALENT/X citizens or DRONE/X citizens.  But how about if +TALENT from SE was modified by PSYCH facilities?  It's essentially like +2 PSYCH per base anyways...only that it seems tacked on separately.

An interesting idea...when I start taking general requests you might want to suggest it.

[Nexii]

Ok.  B-drones are really one of the few things that remotely stop ICS...I can appreciate that.  At 50+ bases usually the game is won, yes.  And this game was in a 'won' state.

The thing is EFFIC is far worse at stopping B-drones than POLICE.  Take 18 bases on a normal sized map.  That's 3 B-Drones a base at 0 EFFIC or 1.5 B-Drones per base at 4 EFFIC.  Even in the worst case where POLICE is crushing normal drones rather than superdrones, this means going from +2 POLICE to +3 POLICE is far better for putting down riots than any increase in efficiency.  Those 3 B-Drones are always put down by 3 police units.  Then consider that POLICE crushes superdrones which are actually very common with the high amount of basic drones.  For example I continued this game on.  In one of my size-13 bases later game I counted ~27-28 Drones.  But even that was easily pacified at just 10% PSYCH (0 ECON so really only around 6 PSYCH in the base) due to the insane power of Police crushing 18 of them.  To get the same pacification with -2 or below POLICE, I'd have had to allocate 60% PSYCH!  That pretty much means +3 POLICE is now more powerful than +2 ECON...the extra energy just doesn't keep pace.  Which might be another aside (the wonkiness of the whole ECON SE is another real game-breaker)

And yes this effect might be amplified since only the custom Yang as a big faction got 27-28 Drones.  Nonetheless it shows that even University could easily offset their DRONE/4 penalty just by getting to +3 POLICE.  I'd still argue the following:
- Police units should only quell one normal drone worth of discontent (phantom or otherwise) each (doubled for NML, tripled with NML and +3 POLICE)
- This would fix the strangeness with specialists influencing riots due to order of operations

[Yitzi]

Ok.  B-drones are really one of the few things that remotely stop ICS

Apparently expensive facilities do a lot to hurt ICS as well.  But yes, that's what they're for.

The thing is EFFIC is far worse at stopping B-drones than POLICE.

Depends on base size and number.  But usually, yes...on the other hand, EFFIC means that you can actually get tech and money from the fringes of your empire, or run a high labs without a crippling penalty for doing so.  POLICE is better at drone control, because that's all it's good for.

[Nexii]

Well anyways Police is very powerful now.  I'll have to do more calcs...Psych does get good with multipliers and +2 ECON as well.  It might still be okay where Democracy can really help population growth and for larger empires EFFIC really matters too.  Far bases pretty much only make minerals with Police State. 

As far as the P-drone modifications, I noted I was always getting P-drones from unarmored sea transports no matter what setting (other than no P-drones).  Has anyone else seen this?  I think they might be getting classified into some 'other' category.

[Yitzi]

Well anyways Police is very powerful now.

Depends on your situation.  If you've got decent efficiency, not a ton of bases, and don't do much conquering, it's not all that important.  If your SOP when encountering a weaker faction is to take them over, you'll want to run Police State.

Far bases pretty much only make minerals with Police State.

Well, Green helps some, but yes if you've got an empire over half the world and are running Police State to keep that empire under control, your outlying provinces will be good only for production.

As far as the P-drone modifications, I noted I was always getting P-drones from unarmored sea transports no matter what setting (other than no P-drones).  Has anyone else seen this?  I think they might be getting classified into some 'other' category.

I think this is the bug that I fixed with one of my minor patches.  Make sure you're running version 2.3d, and not an earlier version of 2.3.  (Check the date modified on the executable; if it's before the date that 2.3d was posted, just put in 2.3d and you should be good.)

[Nexii]

I just re-downloaded 2.3D and I'm still seeing unarmored transports (all chassis) creating P-Drones.  This is with the default settings but I also believe many other modes are creating P-drones that shouldn't.

5,       ; Pacifism rules for units in owner's territory or in bases {0 to 15}
11,      ; Pacifism rules for units in pact brother's territory {0 to 15}
11,      ; Pacifism rules for units in unowned territory or with truce/treaty but no pact {0 to 15}
11,      ; Pacifism rules for units in enemy territory {0 to 15}

11.Only noncombat units do not produce pacifism drones.

[Yitzi]

Hmm...looks like there's another bug, thanks for finding it.  I'll fix it and have 2.3e (which will fix the base graphics bug too) up shortly.

[Nexii]

Yitzi do you have the production check order documented?  I've noted that population growth can again cause a drone riot the same turn.

It seems to go something like growth check, minerals production, population is added, drone riot check.  Thus on a riot turn you will get minerals production, but not the turn it stops rioting.

IMO it should go: drone riot & GA check, minerals production, population (or starvation) check.  Starvation should probably cause riots but that could be optional.

Also semi-related, I've found that the multi build works only if production is in excess of 2x the required minerals.  For example 20 minerals will make 2 scout patrols if they cost 10.  But mineral carryover doesn't seem to work, excess minerals are being discarded (this line).  Positive or negative it doesn't seem to matter - they aren't converted to energy either.
100,      ; Minerals carried over to next item {0 to 32767, or -1 for unlimited}

A third sort of related thing I noted, more related to the population growth check.  If say a size 1 base has 19N stored, gaining +2N a turn, it won't grow even though hitting 21N.  Bases seem to need to fill the nutrient bar before being able to grow.  If you re-work booming this will become more apparent.  Perhaps not a bug but I consider it a flaw because if playing optimally, this adds a ton of micromanagement.

[Yitzi]

Yitzi do you have the production check order documented?  I've noted that population growth can again cause a drone riot the same turn.

With the "don't recalculate base statistics" feature active?  That seems strange; can you attach a savegame (before it happens) and the alphax.txt you're using?

It seems to go something like growth check, minerals production, population is added, drone riot check.

Sounds about right, I don't remember exactly.

IMO it should go: drone riot & GA check, minerals production, population (or starvation) check.

If so, that would mean that building a rec commons would not end the riot until the next turn, possibly resulting in a revolt.

The solution that I used is that instead the order stays as it was before, but nothing is recalculated, so the drone riot check uses the pre-growth numbers.

Also semi-related, I've found that the multi build works only if production is in excess of 2x the required minerals.  For example 20 minerals will make 2 scout patrols if they cost 10.  But mineral carryover doesn't seem to work, excess minerals are being discarded (this line).  Positive or negative it doesn't seem to matter - they aren't converted to energy either.

Very strange; I'll have to test it.  (If you've got a savegame, that probably wouldn't hurt.)

A third sort of related thing I noted, more related to the population growth check.  If say a size 1 base has 19N stored, gaining +2N a turn, it won't grow even though hitting 21N.  Bases seem to need to fill the nutrient bar before being able to grow.  If you re-work booming this will become more apparent.  Perhaps not a bug but I consider it a flaw because if playing optimally, this adds a ton of micromanagement.

I see what you're saying, but it is indeed not a bug, and the non-micromanaging approach isn't that much less optimal than with high micromanagement, so I don't think it's going to be such a high priority.

[Nexii]

No that was with don't recalculate to not active.  Putting that variable to zero fixes the drone riots.  I rarely got revolts even with how it was, perhaps the revolt check is bugged or is after the "stop rioting" check.  So no worries on this one.

Far as the mineral bit, see attached

[Yitzi]

No that was with don't recalculate to not active.  Putting that variable to zero fixes the drone riots.  I rarely got revolts even with how it was, perhaps the revolt check is bugged or is after the "stop rioting" check.

I'm afraid you misunderstood; you wouldn't get revolts with how it was or how it is, but you might with the alternative fix that you proposed.

Far as the mineral bit, see attached

Ok, thanks.

[Nexii]

One more thing to check for Drones.  I'm finding that with the "1" flag on for Drones rules code {1 to 31} (pacifism drones can be quelled by facilities) that pacifism is still calculated last.  Tried "1" and "31".  Doesn't seem to be a flag reversal as "30" also makes pacifism calculated last.