Bugs, flaws, and other things to be fixed: Drones formula

[Buster's Uncle]

Okay, I get that every game, so no problem when I have one at the point where it happens.

[Nexii]

I've recently been playing with the 8 bitmap (mode 30 actually) enabled for Drones formula.  These seem like good changes to avoid a lot of drone exploits.  Is there any way that superdrones could be have a different graphic from normal drones?  The issue is for example I have a base with 1 talent and 1 superdrone.  The base riots as it should, but I have no way of knowing whether it will or not beforehand as the drone could be a normal drone or a superdrone.

[Yitzi]

I've recently been playing with the 8 bitmap (mode 30 actually) enabled for Drones formula.  These seem like good changes to avoid a lot of drone exploits.  Is there any way that superdrones could be have a different graphic from normal drones?

They already do; they are bright red instead of normal red.  Only the "phantom drones" do not show up.

[Nexii]

Interesting! I never noticed - I guess since the drone/superdrone distinction never mattered until this fix.  The graphic is kind of similar.

It's too bad SMAC didn't implement the citizen happiness UI from Civ2 - where population happiness is shown 'before' and 'after' certain modifiers.  The devs really obscured a lot of this code even from themselves by doing it this way. 

I suppose one can keep in mind that a superdrone requires 4 PSYCH to pacify.  If extra icons representing additional discontent(or happiness) can't be displayed, would there be any way to modify the PSYCH # in the city screen to make it more meaningful?

[Yitzi]

Interesting! I never noticed - I guess since the drone/superdrone distinction never mattered until this fix.  The graphic is kind of similar.

It's too bad SMAC didn't implement the citizen happiness UI from Civ2 - where population happiness is shown 'before' and 'after' certain modifiers.

Click on the psych tab under the resource screen.

If extra icons representing additional discontent(or happiness) can't be displayed, would there be any way to modify the PSYCH # in the city screen to make it more meaningful?

None that seems feasible enough to be worth it for the rare cases where it happens and is relevant.

[Nexii]

Ah jeez I should have known that too.  Yea I guess this is fine.  My only concern is the cases where you'd have a small captured base + B-drones.  Doesn't happen a lot I agree, only with --POLICE to not crush the superdrone.  And usually at those settings you're not conquering because of the P-drones.

[Yitzi]

Ah jeez I should have known that too.  Yea I guess this is fine.  My only concern is the cases where you'd have a small captured base + B-drones.

Even then, it's usually not a concern, as all the superdrones have to be eliminated before talents from psych start showing up...so unless it's really small with a Paradise Garden or talent-producing project, it would drone riot without the phantom drones anyway.

The one real concern case I could see is if you have an all-specialist base (engineers or maybe thinkers if you're low on psych-boosting facilities), so no drones show up but they're there anyway...but that's a rare case and one where you can just set a nonspecialist to check what's going on.

Doesn't happen a lot I agree, only with --POLICE to not crush the superdrone.  And usually at those settings you're not conquering because of the P-drones.

Well, you could have exactly -2, such as Gaians running Police State/Cybernetic (which, with Green and Wealth, is actually a pretty good setting for late-game native-based conquest) or Spartans (or anyone with the Ascetic Virtues) running Police State/Market  (nice to know that Spartans can run early-game Market without pacifism drones if they run Police State as well, by the way, though that precludes going Fundie/command center/monolith for instant elite troops) or plain Cybernetic.

[Nexii]

Yea it seems to work pretty well in actual play.  I'm playing with custom SEs lately but it works, there's actually some significant difference between -3 to -1 POLICE and 0 now.

[Nexii]

I've been playing with mode 30 and overall it's much better on Transcend.  POLICE is really important and the amount of drone control needed feels right.  I've been playing custom Hive with Drone/4, and running custom SE with --TALENT (+2 DRONES/base).  +3 POLICE SE and 3 military units in a captured size 6 base.

I tested a bunch of cases  because PSYCH seemed weak.  Often times turning a base to all specialists wouldn't quell riots.
10 psych - riots
11 psych - no riots
14 psych, --TALENT - base riots
15 psych, --TALENT - no riots
0 psych, --TALENT, Rec - riots (4 psych equiv)
0 psych, --TALENT, Rec+Holo - no riots (8 psych equiv)
0 psych, --TALENT, +2 normal unit to Police - base riots (8 psych equiv)
0 psych, --TALENT, +3 normal unit to Police - no riots (12 psych equiv)

So the TALENT SE seems right, as it's equivalent to 4 PSYCH (15-11).  What's weird here is that Rec Commons and Hologram theatre stop riots more effectively than just PSYCH (8 equiv psych instead of 15 allocated psych).  Also NLM police units seem to crush drones more effectively than Psych but not as effective as Rec Commons and Hologram theatre (12 equiv psych instead of 15 allocated).

I'm also seeing in the city that talents will show up before all superdrones are eliminated - at least for Talents from secret projects and perhaps in other cases too.  The drone formula is really complex... :S

[Yitzi]

I've been playing with mode 30 and overall it's much better on Transcend.  POLICE is really important

That's the idea.  Transcend is supposed to be hard.

and the amount of drone control needed feels right.  I've been playing custom Hive with Drone/4, and running custom SE with --TALENT (+2 DRONES/base).  +3 POLICE SE and 3 military units in a captured size 6 base.

I tested a bunch of cases  because PSYCH seemed weak.  Often times turning a base to all specialists wouldn't quell riots.
10 psych - riots
11 psych - no riots
14 psych, --TALENT - base riots
15 psych, --TALENT - no riots
0 psych, --TALENT, Rec - riots (4 psych equiv)
0 psych, --TALENT, Rec+Holo - no riots (8 psych equiv)
0 psych, --TALENT, +2 normal unit to Police - base riots (8 psych equiv)
0 psych, --TALENT, +3 normal unit to Police - no riots (12 psych equiv)

So the TALENT SE seems right, as it's equivalent to 4 PSYCH (15-11).  What's weird here is that Rec Commons and Hologram theatre stop riots more effectively than just PSYCH (8 equiv psych instead of 15 allocated psych).  Also NLM police units seem to crush drones more effectively than Psych but not as effective as Rec Commons and Hologram theatre (12 equiv psych instead of 15 allocated).

That does seem strange...and if 10 psych produces riots then 11 should too (assuming no psych-boosting facilities).  I'm wondering if inefficiency could be responsible...how did you check the various psych values?  Also, what were the exact details of the base (base size, number of bases, turns left to assimilation if it was conquered, and any facilities?)

I'm also seeing in the city that talents will show up before all superdrones are eliminated - at least for Talents from secret projects and perhaps in other cases too.

Yes; the rule is that workers will be turned into talents without having to cancel superdrones first; only talents from psych need to cancel superdrones first, and that's because there's no way to get workers at that stage without cancelling superdrones.

[Nexii]

Probably better if you check the attached.  The Psych values are just those in the city screen (2 per specialist, and tweaking Psych allocation/worker allocation to get specific numbers).  In a few cases it required adding a Tree Farm I believe.

Morgan Collections is the base, size 6.   I'm not sure how to know how many B-drones and C-drones there are.  When I check via Scenario editor I get 39 turns to assim

[Yitzi]

Ok, so here's what I figured out:
-Firstly, you've got a lot of bases, and not very much EFFIC; as a result, you're getting horrible bureaucracy drones.  Between the bureaucracy, the --TALENT, the University-style drones, and the captured base, you really have 16 drones' worth in that little size-6 base.

-With 15 psych (and 2 talents), it does riot if there are no police units.  (I tested by setting 4 doctors and a tree farm, let me know if you test a different way and it does not riot.)  With police units is where it gets interesting: A police unit will suppress a superdrone as if it were a normal drone, but only if there are real superdrones (which are of course capped at the maximum number of nonspecialists.)  So even 7 psych will be plenty to prevent drone riots with 6 units of police (e.g. 3 non-NLM units at +3 POLICE) if there are no specialists, but with a lot of specialists they're less effective.
-With a recreation commons, hologram theater, and no police, it will riot assuming no psych, and if there are police then more police won't boost by that much, so I'm not sure what you're dealing with there.

[Nexii]

I should clarify the police units better in my test cases, I think I was confusing.  It's definately something to do with the specialists

10 psych, 3 non-NLM units - riots
11 psych, 3 non-NLM units - no riots
14 psych, --TALENT (FM), 3 non-NLM units - base riots
15 psych, --TALENT. 3 non-NLM units - no riots (4 doctors)**
15 psych, --TALENT. 3 non-NLM units - riots (5 doctors)**
0 psych, --TALENT, 3 non-NLM units, Rec - riots
0 psych, --TALENT, 3 non-NLM units, Rec+Holo - no riots
0 psych, --TALENT, 2 NLM units and one non-NLM unit - base riots
0 psych, --TALENT, 3 NLM units - no riots

I'm still not too clear on why Rec+Holo is enough to suppress but it requires around 15 psych to equal those two facilities.  Shouldn't they be closer to 8 psych equivalent?

Similarly why is 3 extra police suppression somewhere in between?  It does seem like they're suppressing all the extra superdrones, with an effectiveness somewhere in between Rec+Holo and psych.  3 police suppression should be ~12 psych?

[Nexii]

So to summarize this isn't too clear since the three methods of drone suppression seem to have different effectiveness.  It takes around 15 psych to stop riots with specialists/psych allocation.  Or Rec+Holo (which is ~8 psych).  Or 3 extra police units (which is ~12 psych).

[Yitzi]

I should clarify the police units better in my test cases, I think I was confusing.  It's definately something to do with the specialists

10 psych, 3 non-NLM units - riots
11 psych, 3 non-NLM units - no riots
14 psych, --TALENT (FM), 3 non-NLM units - base riots
15 psych, --TALENT. 3 non-NLM units - no riots (4 doctors)**
15 psych, --TALENT. 3 non-NLM units - riots (5 doctors)**
0 psych, --TALENT, 3 non-NLM units, Rec - riots
0 psych, --TALENT, 3 non-NLM units, Rec+Holo - no riots
0 psych, --TALENT, 2 NLM units and one non-NLM unit - base riots
0 psych, --TALENT, 3 NLM units - no riots

I'm still not too clear on why Rec+Holo is enough to suppress but it requires around 15 psych to equal those two facilities.  Shouldn't they be closer to 8 psych equivalent?

What you're missing is that it's not Rec+Holo vs. 15 psych.  It's Rec+Holo+3 non-NLM police with no specialists (and thus 6 superdrones and 4 phantom drones) vs. 15 psych+3 non-NLM police with 4-5 specialists (and thus 1-2 superdrones and 12-14 phantom drones.)

Police, of any sort, are double effectiveness against superdrones...but you can't have as many superdrones in a small base if most of them are specialists.  Compare cases with the same number of specialists (i.e. for 0 psych, turn the doctors into technicians rather than workers), and it should make more sense.

Similarly why is 3 extra police suppression somewhere in between?  It does seem like they're suppressing all the extra superdrones, with an effectiveness somewhere in between Rec+Holo and psych.

Two extra police points (by making 2 of the police units NLM) are worth only 4 psych (since even without them you have one per superdrone), whereas rec+holo is 8, so that's why rec+holo is worth more.

It's only in extreme cases like yours (where there were a ton of drones in a small base and a lot of police) that these effects really stand out, but that's what's happening.