Star Wars VII-IX, what do you think?

[Unorthodox]

But The Force is, and that's what makes Luke a good pilot.  Sorry, it was beaten over everyone's head many times in the movie.  Darth Vader is trying to blow up Luke Skywalker and says "The Force is strong with this one."  Please refer to King Missile song "Jesus was way cool" for the array of powers likely to be bestowed by The Force.  Baking the most delicious cakes, dancing better than Baryshnikov, etc.

Disagree.  Force can HELP, but does not MAKE.  Obi Wan was NOT a good pilot even with the force.  Han was excellent without the force.  So was Wedge, Lando, Jango Fett, and presumably Boba Fett. 

Did you miss the disaster called The Phantom Menace where Anakin's natural piloting skills are showcased?

There's a couple things cut from that film too that helped explain some of his supposed skills on the fighter.  The pod racing, he'd been doing it for lord knows how long. 

No, plenty of setup has been given for Luke's piloting skills.  You're just ignoring the instances because you're married to a pod race, that most of us didn't even know was ever supposed to be in the original movie.

What set up?  Literally he SAID he was a good pilot.  That's it.  You never see him pilot a thing until he gets in the X-Wing. 

Yeah but lo and behold, go figure, he actually is a good pilot.  You know sometimes when people run their mouths, they actually have the skills.  And it turns out to be your own ego in the way, when you say things like "Oh no so-and-so can't have the skills, because..." you don't like how they talk?  Not a good enough reason.

I didn't say he couldn't, I said it's poor storytelling.  If anything, "Because the force" is even weaker storytelling. 

Pretty sure that's because they accidentally flipped the scene.  I remember something about that in "the making of" stuff.  I seriously doubt 3PO is actually driving.

Yep, that's why he tells 3po to step on it. 

He's commenting on so-and-so's negativity about the impossibility of the task.  Luke has The Force.  Obi Wan taught him to be a positive thinker.  Of course he's not perfect at it: the theme of positive vs. negative thinking is highlighted when Yoda asks Luke to pull the X-Wing out of the swamp in The Empire Strikes Back.

Yes...explain where Obi Wan imparted this wisdom?  In the 5 minutes with the training droid? 

Also, why do you presume that Luke is supposed to shut up in a meeting?  He just saved Princess Leia.  He has firsthand knowledge of the Death Star.  I think not running his mouth in general about stuff and not taking center stage, shows great humility on his part.  He knows he's there to play a role in something much bigger than himself.

He doesn't just speak up about negativity, though.  He mentions he used to do a similar thing in his similar craft.  This makes sense to the people he's talking to, and again foreshadows his ability to do it 'for real'.  But you don't like foreshadowing, because the force.   

Bit of trivia for you, the one complaining was Wedge, who goes on to destroy death star v2.  He arguably outflies Luke in the snow speeders in Empire, even.  Sans force. 

Jar-Jar Binks is unforgiveable and bordering on racist.  That whole planet of Naboo and the droid-only combat is the biggest stinkingest pile of nerfing crap.  Should all be flushed down a toilet through the center of some distant planet.

I prefer the gungans fighting the droids to the teddy bears fighting the imperial army. 

He does, but also has no personality and is boring except as a combatant.  Some people object strongly to Maul.  I don't because he's the only Star Wars in the whole goddamn thing.

His lack of character is mostly because he was supposed to be fleshed out later, and fill in as a body guard for Lee (however you spell dooku) in episode 2/3.  But that got cut because the plot got leaked before #2 and Lucas changed it.  His return later happened in the cartoon series and was well received.   

I suppose Boba Fett is just as boring? 

[bvanevery]

Disagree.  Force can HELP, but does not MAKE.  Obi Wan was NOT a good pilot even with the force.

"Master" piloted just fine in Attack of the Clones.  In the original Star Wars, Obi Wan's possible piloting ability simply isn't addressed.

Han was excellent without the force.

Han has the Force.  At least after he didn't get blown away by Greedo's 1st blaster shot, the idea of Han having the Force is very much extant.  Not as much Force as Luke or Leia obviously, but enough to get "lucky" often.  In Obi Wan's experience, "there's no such thing as luck."  To further follow up on this theme of Han having some Force, his child is the most powerful villain in the galaxy in the new movies.  That's not all Leia.

So was Wedge, Lando, Jango Fett, and presumably Boba Fett. 

No comment.  But the proposition isn't "being a good pilot makes you strong with the Force".  It's the other way around.

Darth Vader is so good that he doesn't get blown up when everyone else on the Death Star dies.  That's another instance of "Han Solo style luck".  In Obi Wan's view, not luck at all.

What set up?  Literally he SAID he was a good pilot.  That's it.  You never see him pilot a thing until he gets in the X-Wing. 

Setting things up verbally is allowed in screenplays.  It wasn't the only time Luke's piloting abiltiy was talked about either.  You're just choosing to ignore it.

I didn't say he couldn't, I said it's poor storytelling. 

You are seeing the movie through your pod racer radio play bias, which most of us haven't experienced and don't care about.

Now let me ask you this.  If the orignial Star Wars had such "poor" storytelling... are you saying that when Luke climbs into an X-Wing, you said "nuh-uh!" ?  And how old were you when you saw it?  Later he blows up the Death Star; did you express your incredulity once again? 

If anything, "Because the force" is even weaker storytelling. 

The whole universe is absurd if you really get down to it, so why not just criticize Star Wars in general as being weak?  Presumably because you've accepted some of this universe's premises somewhere along the way.  This hasn't happened for you regarding piloting, whereas it's bloody obvious to most of the rest of us who watched 6 movies without external stimulus.  Normal people get killed in dogfights.  They crash into canyon walls.  Amazing Force powerful superpeople perform heroic feats of piloting.

Yep, that's why he tells 3po to step on it. 

Oh well, you remember a detail better than I do, on a scene that was still flipped.  Why does this matter?  Pilots can't ever be chauffered? Actually it is kind a weird that 3po is doing the driving.  I don't think he ever does anything like that again in any of the movies.  Hmm... wonder if they changed the dialogue to match the scene flip?

Yes...explain where Obi Wan imparted this wisdom?  In the 5 minutes with the training droid? 

Like every single waking second they were together.  Musta done a lot because in the scheme of things, they didn't have a lot of time together before he bit it.  Anyways the specific line you're looking for is "That's your uncle talking."

He doesn't just speak up about negativity, though.  He mentions he used to do a similar thing in his similar craft.  This makes sense to the people he's talking to, and again foreshadows his ability to do it 'for real'.  But you don't like foreshadowing, because the force. 

"I" don't like foreshadowing?  I think you're projecting.  What rule of speech says he's not allowed to talk about spaceships in the meeting?

Bit of trivia for you, the one complaining was Wedge, who goes on to destroy death star v2. 

Bit of a milk run once they got there.  Not like it was a small target.

He arguably outflies Luke in the snow speeders in Empire, even. 

He's not nearly as good at gutting Walkers with a lightsaber though.

Sans force. 

And you know that for certain because... he doesn't become a Jedi apprentice?  There are presumably piles of people in the galaxy who have some Force ability that is never trained.  Heck, Luke would have been one of them if not for circumstance... which in Obi Wan's view are the Force anyways.

I prefer the gungans fighting the droids to the teddy bears fighting the imperial army. 

They were both horrid, and the Ewoks were the beginning of the end.

But that got cut because the plot got leaked before #2 and Lucas changed it.

What a strange fate.  And what a strange obsession for that matter.  I still don't understand why Game of Thrones production has halted.  I wonder if I'd understand if I read more about it.

I suppose Boba Fett is just as boring?

He is pretty boring as a character.  He's all suit / action villain / screen presence / gear.  Sort of a mini Darth Vader, no Jedi magic.

[Unorthodox]

"Master" piloted just fine in Attack of the Clones.  In the original Star Wars, Obi Wan's possible piloting ability simply isn't addressed.

Managed not to die to a non-force user does not equal just fine.  Besides your point was the force makes you a good pilot.  So, either Jango was stronger with the force, or Obi-Wan is a crappier pilot despite having the force. 

Han has the Force.  At least after he didn't get blown away by Greedo's 1st blaster shot, the idea of Han having the Force is very much extant.  Not as much Force as Luke or Leia obviously, but enough to get "lucky" often.  In Obi Wan's experience, "there's no such thing as luck."  To further follow up on this theme of Han having some Force, his child is the most powerful villain in the galaxy in the new movies.  That's not all Leia.

I didn't know we were going down the fan theory lane. 

No comment.  But the proposition isn't "being a good pilot makes you strong with the Force".  It's the other way around.

Right, so these non-force users being better than force using pilots ins problematic to the other way around.  Even with your Han head-canon. 

Darth Vader is so good that he doesn't get blown up when everyone else on the Death Star dies.  That's another instance of "Han Solo style luck".  In Obi Wan's view, not luck at all.

Darth wasn't near the blowing up death star, and that had nothing to do with his Force ability. 

Setting things up verbally is allowed in screenplays.  It wasn't the only time Luke's piloting abiltiy was talked about either.  You're just choosing to ignore it.

The only other time was Obi Wan mentioning and a couple of cut scenes.  Among them the race.  You're the one arguing the race wouldn't have added anything and that no more setup was needed.  I disagree.  So did Lucas, which is why he added the Biggs meeting in the hangar back into the film. 

You are seeing the movie through your pod racer radio play bias, which most of us haven't experienced and don't care about.

And you're too worried about anyone critiquing your childhood.  No matter what was in the screenplay. 

Now let me ask you this.  If the orignial Star Wars had such "poor" storytelling... are you saying that when Luke climbs into an X-Wing, you said "nuh-uh!" ?  And how old were you when you saw it?  Later he blows up the Death Star; did you express your incredulity once again?

 

I was 5.  No, such things weren't in my head at 5.  After learning about things like plots and good storytelling, I wasn't such a fanboy that I couldn't see the flaws. 

I was genuinely confused by people complaining of the crappy dialog in the prequels as it wasn't any WORSE than the originals.  Acting maybe worse, but the actual dialog, no.  And yes, the 90 degree turning [nonsense] torpedoes have bothered me for as long as I can remember.   

The whole universe is absurd if you really get down to it, so why not just criticize Star Wars in general as being weak?  Presumably because you've accepted some of this universe's premises somewhere along the way.  This hasn't happened for you regarding piloting, whereas it's bloody obvious to most of the rest of us who watched 6 movies without external stimulus.  Normal people get killed in dogfights.  They crash into canyon walls.  Amazing Force powerful superpeople perform heroic feats of piloting.

And non force people do in the movies as well, otherwise you have a load of force using folks.  Force doesn't make all that, honestly.  You are ignoring all those super force jedi getting their asses handed to them by the droids, and later not seeing order 66 coming at all, and numerous other things the force folks don't manage. 

Oh well, you remember a detail better than I do, on a scene that was still flipped.  Why does this matter?  Pilots can't ever be chauffered? Actually it is kind a weird that 3po is doing the driving.  I don't think he ever does anything like that again in any of the movies.  Hmm... wonder if they changed the dialogue to match the scene flip?

I think he drives in one of the prequels as well, but I could be mistaken.  Luke is using his binoculars so presumably can't drive and do that at the same time. 

Like every single waking second they were together.  Musta done a lot because in the scheme of things, they didn't have a lot of time together before he bit it.  Anyways the specific line you're looking for is "That's your uncle talking."

Which has nothing to do about being positive.  It's about not being able to leave. 

"I" don't like foreshadowing?  I think you're projecting.  What rule of speech says he's not allowed to talk about spaceships in the meeting?

You're the one saying it's a comment about the general negativity.  I'm the one saying he was making a relevant comparison to something he's done with a similar military craft.  He's not trying to be positive, he's bragging how he's already done it. 

Bit of a milk run once they got there.  Not like it was a small target.

And yet getting there was much more difficult than anything we see Luke manage with his super force piloting skills. 

He's not nearly as good at gutting Walkers with a lightsaber though.

Cause he's still airborne. 

And you know that for certain because... he doesn't become a Jedi apprentice?  There are presumably piles of people in the galaxy who have some Force ability that is never trained.  Heck, Luke would have been one of them if not for circumstance... which in Obi Wan's view are the Force anyways.

Obi Wan is a proven twister of circumstances to his own point of view.  Not a reliable source

They were both horrid, and the Ewoks were the beginning of the end.

There we can agree.

He is pretty boring as a character.  He's all suit / action villain / screen presence / gear.  Sort of a mini Darth Vader, no Jedi magic.

And sometimes there's nothing wrong with that. 

[Unorthodox]

Anyhow.  Going to see the new one tomorrow. 

[bvanevery]

I didn't know we were going down the fan theory lane. 

What possible reason can you offer for Han Solo surviving Greedo's point blank attack?  Other than that Han is lucky with the Force.  Per Obi Wan's statement that there's no such thing as luck.

The only other "explanation" I'm seeing is theme based, not reality based.  Lucas decides he wants Han to be less of a "bad guy", that shooting first isn't culturally acceptable.  Which frankly by itself, doesn't work.  The original "gunslinger" approach, does work.  Han knows they're about to start shooting, so Han shoots first, under the table where his enemy can't see what's happening.  I mean really, Greedo's got a gun on Han the whole time.  Where is the moral dilemma here?

Right, so these non-force users being better than force using pilots ins problematic to the other way around.  Even with your Han head-canon. 

At some point you will realize that Star Wars, the Force, and Jedi "wizards" don't work because they're not rational.  But if you accept the premises the movie offers you, take them at face value and don't stare too deeply at them, you'll be fine.

Darth wasn't near the blowing up death star, and that had nothing to do with his Force ability. 

Not dying right there had everything to do with Darth being strong with the Force.  The Force is the in-world plot armor.  What should have happened, rationally, is Han should have easily picked off all 3 tie-fighters from behind.  Darth got super, super lucky, and there's no such thing as luck in this universe.

I disagree.  So did Lucas, which is why he added the Biggs meeting in the hangar back into the film. 

I'm not buying that it was some huge weighty "fix the movie" decision on Lucas' part.  Rather, he has the footage, might as well throw it in.  This is in an era where the business model of releasing "Director's Cuts" with 5% additional material is becoming a solid business model for DVD sales.  I really wish they'd all stop bothering with this Theatrical Release stuff, but there are probably some business factors why it will keep going for awhile.  Maybe indefinitely.

Actual fixes, look at what was substantially changed (Greedo), or completely added from scratch (stupid CGI beast comedy).  The latter was clearly done to make the movie have more continuity with the CGI prequels.

I was 5.  No, such things weren't in my head at 5.  After learning about things like plots and good storytelling, I wasn't such a fanboy that I couldn't see the flaws. 

Rather than trying to label people and push that you're somehow the best / most financially successful screenwriter ever, perhaps you will concede to a screenplay being plenty good enough?  Just because you're having an "icebox moment" now, doesn't mean you were having one when you were watching the film.

I was genuinely confused by people complaining of the crappy dialog in the prequels as it wasn't any WORSE than the originals.  Acting maybe worse, but the actual dialog, no.

Most people can't tell the difference between lines, and the actors' use of the lines.

You are ignoring all those super force jedi getting their asses handed to them by the droids,

Um.. WAT?  Name one battlefield example that isn't an ambush per order 66.

and later not seeing order 66 coming at all,

It's weird, but not an indictment of combat skill.  Ambush works.  Yoda sensed it....  Emotionally I think we need to ask, why did the Jedi in general trust the Clone troops of the Republic?

Which has nothing to do about being positive.  It's about not being able to leave. 

It's about "I can't..." vs. "You can".  Obi Wan sets Luke on a big character arc about what is possible or not possible.  "You have taken your 1st step into a larger world."

You're the one saying it's a comment about the general negativity.  I'm the one saying he was making a relevant comparison to something he's done with a similar military craft.  He's not trying to be positive, he's bragging how he's already done it. 

He can chew gum and walk.  And I don't agree about it being bragging.  For Luke it's a statement of fact.  "It's not impossible" is the emphasis.

Bit of a milk run once they got there.  Not like it was a small target.

And yet getting there was much more difficult than anything we see Luke manage with his super force piloting skills. 

WAT?  You think they had a harder time "on approach" in VI than in IV?  Surely you jest.

Cause he's still airborne. 

Does the phrase "on any given Sunday" mean anything to you?

Obi Wan is a proven twister of circumstances to his own point of view.  Not a reliable source

Oh good grief.  Obi Wan is evil.  You have joined the Dark Side.  Whatever.

He is pretty boring as a character.  He's all suit / action villain / screen presence / gear.  Sort of a mini Darth Vader, no Jedi magic.

And sometimes there's nothing wrong with that.

Generally the wrongness is when you are expecting / wanting more out of a character, because it's not otherwise being provided elsewhere in the film.  Darth Maul, definitely not enough, he was a "cutout bad guy".  Boba Fett, at least he embodies all the negative qualities of what we imagine a "bounty hunter" is in this scum-ridden universe.

[bvanevery]

Anyhow.  Going to see the new one tomorrow.

Good luck with that.  Since you seem to be a complainer about small details, I'm going to be interested to see what specific form your complaints take.  I remember there being 1 thing I didn't buy, but it wasn't a dealbreaker, and it fades from my mind now.

[Unorthodox]

What possible reason can you offer for Han Solo surviving Greedo's point blank attack?  Other than that Han is lucky with the Force.  Per Obi Wan's statement that there's no such thing as luck.

The only other "explanation" I'm seeing is theme based, not reality based.  Lucas decides he wants Han to be less of a "bad guy", that shooting first isn't culturally acceptable.  Which frankly by itself, doesn't work.  The original "gunslinger" approach, does work.  Han knows they're about to start shooting, so Han shoots first, under the table where his enemy can't see what's happening.  I mean really, Greedo's got a gun on Han the whole time.  Where is the moral dilemma here?

If you can find the original.  Han doesn't shoot first...he's the only one that shoots, period. 

Here's the script for you, in case you don't believe me:

https://twitter.com/TheWookieeRoars/status/705043238382604288/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cinemablend.com%2Fnew%2FEnds-Star-Wars-Han-Shot-First-Debate-Once-All-115797.html

Not dying right there had everything to do with Darth being strong with the Force.  The Force is the in-world plot armor.  What should have happened, rationally, is Han should have easily picked off all 3 tie-fighters from behind.  Darth got super, super lucky, and there's no such thing as luck in this universe.

So, wait, Han shoots one tie fighter.  It bumps Vader, causing him to fly out of control, then slams the second one causing both to crash.  This is Vader's force ability? 

I'm not buying that it was some huge weighty "fix the movie" decision on Lucas' part.  Rather, he has the footage, might as well throw it in.  This is in an era where the business model of releasing "Director's Cuts" with 5% additional material is becoming a solid business model for DVD sales.  I really wish they'd all stop bothering with this Theatrical Release stuff, but there are probably some business factors why it will keep going for awhile.  Maybe indefinitely.

But the fact it was there to put in proves it's in the screenplay to begin with.  Thanks for making my point. 

Actual fixes, look at what was substantially changed (Greedo), or completely added from scratch (stupid CGI beast comedy).  The latter was clearly done to make the movie have more continuity with the CGI prequels.

Greedo was someone feeling bad about gun violence, not a change to make sense of anything.  Like the walkie talkies in ET that make no sense. 

Rather than trying to label people and push that you're somehow the best / most financially successful screenwriter ever, perhaps you will concede to a screenplay being plenty good enough?  Just because you're having an "icebox moment" now, doesn't mean you were having one when you were watching the film.

Everything I've mentioned was in the screenplay.  You're the one arguing against it.  It's not my fault the radio drama followed the screenplay more than the movies for budget and run time problems.  Doesn't change that they weren't always canon and part of the story. 

Um.. WAT?  Name one battlefield example that isn't an ambush per order 66.

Let's see.  Jango single handedly murdering green jedi guy on the balcony when jedi guy jumps up there to be awesome. 

All the assorted dead Jedi in the battle referenced by Lee.  Various wounded Jedi crawling around during the pause in battle.  Lukes hand getting shot...

and later not seeing order 66 coming at all,

It's weird, but not an indictment of combat skill.  Ambush works.  Yoda sensed it....

It's about "I can't..." vs. "You can".  Obi Wan sets Luke on a big character arc about what is possible or not possible.  "You have taken your 1st step into a larger world."

None of which is positive thinking. 

He can chew gum and walk.  And I don't agree about it being bragging.  For Luke it's a statement of fact.  "It's not impossible" is the emphasis.

It's not impossible won't mean anything if he hadn't done it in a similar circumstance/equipment. 

WAT?  You think they had a harder time "on approach" in VI than in IV?  Surely you jest.

I surely think the infrastructure of V2 is a hell of a lot tighter spaced than the trend of V1, yes.  And the battle is FAR more intense outside as well. 

Does the phrase "on any given Sunday" mean anything to you?

But force is supposed to make it ALWAYS your Sunday.  That's your whole point. 

Oh good grief.  Obi Wan is evil.  You have joined the Dark Side.  Whatever.

I never joined the light side.

[bvanevery]

If you can find the original.  Han doesn't shoot first...he's the only one that shoots, period. 

Here's the script for you, in case you don't believe me:

You may recall that when I saw the original movie, I was 2 years older than you, and had 2 years better memory for such details.  Not to mention all the years in between of seeing it again and again and again, before Lucas took a hatchet to it.  When I say "Han shoots first", it is literally correct.  Greedo never gets any chance to shoot second, he's fried to a crisp.  That's good gunfighting in my 2nd Amendment / Wild West view of things.  On a quick draw your enemy is not supposed to get the chance to shoot you.

So, wait, Han shoots one tie fighter.  It bumps Vader, causing him to fly out of control, then slams the second one causing both to crash.  This is Vader's force ability? 

Yep.  'Cuz in another 3 seconds, without that lucky break, Han would have fried Vader.  But I guess 3 seconds is a long time in combat.  A lot of things can happen.

You really honestly never figured this out, the 1st time around watching these films?  Even my 7 year old self thought there was no way Vader should have survived that.  It was a complete ass pull.  Superficial explanation is "we want Vader for the next movie".  In-world explanation is Vader is lucky with the Force, in a world where there's no such thing as luck.  All of the other bad guys on the Death Star, die.  Vader is somehow bigger than that.

It is also complete luck, that Vader was thrown into space, totally clear of the Death Star's explosion, rather than crashing into a wall and exploding like the other wing pilot.

But the fact it was there to put in proves it's in the screenplay to begin with.

Yeah, and it got cut to begin with.  Which means it wasn't critical, it could be trimmed.

Greedo was someone feeling bad about gun violence, not a change to make sense of anything.

Quite believable to me.  The Phantom Menace completely nerfed combat, saying it's ok to kill droids.  Only gravatas was Darth Maul running Quai whatishame through.

Everything I've mentioned was in the screenplay.

Hey newsflash, the film is the film.  Sorry if you think everyone was supposed to be watching a screenplay and not the final film.  There's this thing called editing in postproduction.  The Cutting Room Floor.

Um.. WAT?  Name one battlefield example that isn't an ambush per order 66.

Let's see.  Jango single handedly murdering green jedi guy on the balcony when jedi guy jumps up there to be awesome. 

All the assorted dead Jedi in the battle referenced by Lee.  Various wounded Jedi crawling around during the pause in battle.  Lukes hand getting shot...

"Luke?"  He isn't even born yet!  Well I guess you're skipping through movies.  I don't even remember Luke getting shot in the hand, I remember his hand being cut off by Vader in a duel.  I can't bear to go over details of the atrocity film that shall not be named, but I will look for a reference to Luke's hand getting shot.  Ok, found one:

Skywalker told Organa to aim the cannon at the deck of the barge, at which point Taym Dren-garen shot his right hand, exposing his mechanical limb, but the Jedi quickly recovered and continued to prevent any guards from reaching the cannon.

This incident exists to demonstrate that Luke has a mechanical hand.  A storytelling prerogative overrides the usual rules of how Jedi do in combat against blasters.  It doesn't have much effect in the scheme of things, and it's certainly better to be shot in a mechanical hand than anywhere else in one's body, where one could easily die.

It's about "I can't..." vs. "You can".  Obi Wan sets Luke on a big character arc about what is possible or not possible.  "You have taken your 1st step into a larger world."

None of which is positive thinking. 

That's what you say, and since you're married to your opinion, I won't try to talk you out of it.

Oh good grief.  Obi Wan is evil.  You have joined the Dark Side.  Whatever.

I never joined the light side.

Then you're a loser.

[Buster's Uncle]

Hey - no insults.

I mean it.

[Unorthodox]

You may recall that when I saw the original movie, I was 2 years older than you, and had 2 years better memory for such details.  Not to mention all the years in between of seeing it again and again and again, before Lucas took a hatchet to it.  When I say "Han shoots first", it is literally correct.  Greedo never gets any chance to shoot second, he's fried to a crisp.  That's good gunfighting in my 2nd Amendment / Wild West view of things.  On a quick draw your enemy is not supposed to get the chance to shoot you.

Exactly, so he didn't need force powers to dodge anything at point blank.  My point again. 

Yep.  'Cuz in another 3 seconds, without that lucky break, Han would have fried Vader.  But I guess 3 seconds is a long time in combat.  A lot of things can happen.

You really honestly never figured this out, the 1st time around watching these films?  Even my 7 year old self thought there was no way Vader should have survived that.  It was a complete ass pull.  Superficial explanation is "we want Vader for the next movie".  In-world explanation is Vader is lucky with the Force, in a world where there's no such thing as luck.  All of the other bad guys on the Death Star, die.  Vader is somehow bigger than that.

Actually Han's best move is to stay up top and keep Luke clear, not chase Vader now that he's not a threat to the mission.  It always made me wonder why the other rebel ships weren't doing that on the previous runs, actually. 

Yeah, and it got cut to begin with.  Which means it wasn't critical, it could be trimmed.

But was added back to the radio play because it was deemed important and canon. 

Hey newsflash, the film is the film.  Sorry if you think everyone was supposed to be watching a screenplay and not the final film.  There's this thing called editing in postproduction.  The Cutting Room Floor.

And there's this thing called well, I don't know what Disney calls it anymore, but there was the Holocron for the original canon.  The radio play was in it.  Sorry. 

"Luke?"  He isn't even born yet!  Well I guess you're skipping through movies.  I don't even remember Luke getting shot in the hand, I remember his hand being cut off by Vader in a duel.  I can't bear to go over details of the atrocity film that shall not be named, but I will look for a reference to Luke's hand getting shot.  Ok, found one:

Skywalker told Organa to aim the cannon at the deck of the barge, at which point Taym Dren-garen shot his right hand, exposing his mechanical limb, but the Jedi quickly recovered and continued to prevent any guards from reaching the cannon.

Fact: Luke gets his hand shot rescuing Han despite super force powers.  Oh, you found it.  How many things is that now you've found during our conversation.  Tell me again how much better your 2 years older memory is. 

This incident exists to demonstrate that Luke has a mechanical hand.

Already covered in Empire.

Then you're a loser.

Ok. 

[Unorthodox]

I do have to thank you for making the day go so much quicker though. 

[Buster's Uncle]

In the original theatrical release -I'm older than either of you- Vader was shown spinning away for a slit second after the Falcon's intervention.  I believe him stabilizing and flying off was a very early Lucas edit/fiddle.

-Incidentally, "A long time ago" etc., was only on the posters.  The film began with the legend "Another Galaxy Another Time".

[Unorthodox]

I know of 2 edits/editions before the BIG edits, but I don't recall what all got changed outside of the crawl. 

IIRC Vader's survival was added to a theatrical re-release around the time of Empire.  Because previous to that they weren't sure there would BE an Empire, so they left his fate a little ambiguous. 

[Buster's Uncle]

Right.

But that's Lucas right there for you; Vader hadn't actually been shown to be killed, and the retcon was unneeded.

[bvanevery]

Exactly, so he didn't need force powers to dodge anything at point blank.  My point again. 

He didn't need luck in the cantina in the original movie.  He definitely needed luck in other instances, like not being summarily executed by Stormtroopers in the Death Star.  Maybe he had some luck piloting The Millennium Falcon and not getting shot up too badly as well.

Actually Han's best move is to stay up top and keep Luke clear, not chase Vader now that he's not a threat to the mission.

Given what actually happened.  But what should have happened, is the 1st wing pilot is blown to bits, then the 2nd wing pilot is blown to bits, then Vader is blown to bits.  In about 5 seconds of Millenium Falcon strafing.  Oddly, it didn't happen that way, even though it was the obvious way it should have happened.  It's exactly what happened to everyone else who had firepower right on their tail in that trench.  Just that Vader was doing the from-behind executions before.

  It always made me wonder why the other rebel ships weren't doing that on the previous runs, actually. 

I have supposed they didn't have enough manpower to cover everything.  Imperials had more ships to tie them up, etc.

Yeah, and it got cut to begin with.  Which means it wasn't critical, it could be trimmed.

But was added back to the radio play because it was deemed important and canon. 

That's great, but again, most of us have never heard it and don't care.  Our view of Star Wars isn't colored by screenplay tidbits or radio plays.  We went with what was in the films, and for the most part, they're internally coherent.  Don't need a radio play to figure out that Luke can pilot an X-wing.

And there's this thing called well, I don't know what Disney calls it anymore, but there was the Holocron for the original canon.

The radio play was in it.  Sorry.

The Holocron?  I'm not sure I've ever even heard that term.  I doubt it's original to the first 3 movies.  Guess I'll look it up.  Yep, what I'm seeing looks like prequel stuff.  Doesn't basically count, for trying to decide the internal logic of the original 3 films.  "Retconning" in general doesn't count.

Also I sure as heck don't remember hearing any radio play from a Holocron in the prequels.  From a film critical perspective, mostly if it isn't in the film or talked about in the film, it doesn't exist.  It should at least be in some film of the series, and it doesn't meet that standard either.  Pronouncing "by fiat" that it exists in materials external to the film... well fine, it's George Lucas' ego or whatever.  He could babble on about all sorts of stuff that isn't actually coherent in the films as they are presented.

Fact: Luke gets his hand shot rescuing Han despite super force powers.  Oh, you found it.  How many things is that now you've found during our conversation.  Tell me again how much better your 2 years older memory is. 

So that Luke's cyborg hand can be shown off.  No other reason really.

This incident exists to demonstrate that Luke has a mechanical hand.

Already covered in Empire.

3rd movies are made on the presumption that not everyone has seen the 1st or 2nd films.  So this movie took the opportunity to establish that Luke has a mechanical hand.  In continuity with the 2nd movie.  Many things that you might want to say are "already covered", are going to be repeated between films, so that people remember them.  Or learn about them the 1st time, as case may be.

Then you're a loser.

Ok.

Actually to be fair, the scorecard in the original 3 films is 2:1 Jedi favor.  Then in the prequels I'm not sure how we score it... 3rd film looks like "infinity to whatever" in favor of the Sith.  Now in the Disney films the New Order has the upper hand again, although there are Resistance victories.  Hard to say who's winning overall.

But as a kid, for the original 3 films, my point stands!