The "News" thread.

[Buster's Uncle]

How strong is the evidence that the US is to blame for the opposition takeover, anyway?

[Rusty Edge]

Any thoughts, Rusty?

I spent a couple years in the late 1980s  tutoring a Ukranian-born religious refugee in English as a second language. He wasn't religious, but his parents were Baptists or Pentecostals, I forget which. The whole family was sent west. Even though he served in the Soviet Army, he was not a fan of the Russians. Someone asked him how he felt when Regan called the USSR an "Evil Empire". He said "It is!!"

His stories about elementary school and speaking Ukranian there in front of their Russian teachers sound like the stories of US kids who went to Catholic school here and got beat by the nuns for being left handed.

He also told me that "Polish" was synonymous with high quality products. They were always excited about being issued Polish rather than Russian made ones, particularly toilet paper. He couldn't understand the Poles being stereotyped as stupid in America. He said in the USSR the Eskimos were  the butt of the stupid jokes.

Anyway, I have some  sense of The Ukraine ( doesn't the name mean The Borderlands"? ) being a mixture of eastern oriented ethnic Russians and nationalistic  and western oriented ethnic Ukranians.

I saw some news coverage of the civil unrest/ molotovs , and my first thoughts were much the same as years before when the news anchors were telling me how history was being made and things had changed forever in China, during the protest at Tien a Min square.
I thought - "I hope everybody can back down and save face before the slaughter starts. Don't they know that there's nothing the outside world  can do to stop a crackdown?  The outside can only retaliate. "

Today I posted about what if the shoe were on the other foot. If Puerto Rico had been granted independence in 1954 or 1990-something whenever the USSR dissolved, and a corrupt capitalist leader had recently been run out of the country, and communist elements in the legislature moved Puerto Rico  closer to Cuba... wouldn't we, the USA  intervene to protect lives, property and interests?

That was refuted and I replied with "we did in Grenada."

I don't really want to argue anywhere. I wish I hadn't said that because I don't want to alienate anyone, but I thought it needed pointing out at the time. Maybe I'll lie low here for a while.

I just hope and pray for peaceful resolution.

[Buster's Uncle]

Putin cools tensions in Ukraine, Kerry in Kiev
Associated Press
4 hours ago



Pro-Russian troops who had taken control of the Belbek air base in the Crimea region fired warning shots into the air on Tuesday as around 300 Ukrainian soldiers, who previously manned the airfield, demanded their jobs back. (March 4)



MOSCOW (AP) — Stepping back from the brink of war, Vladimir Putin talked tough but cooled tensions in the Ukraine crisis in his first comments since its president fled, saying Tuesday that Russia has no intention "to fight the Ukrainian people" but reserved the right to use force.

As the Russian president held court in his personal residence, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry met with Kiev's fledgling government and Moscow agreed to sit down with NATO.

Although nerves remained on edge in Crimea, with Russian troops firing warning shots to ward off Ukrainian soldiers, global markets catapulted higher on tentative signals that the Kremlin was not seeking to escalate the conflict. Kerry brought moral support and a $1 billion aid package to a Ukraine fighting to fend off bankruptcy.

Lounging in an arm-chair before Russian tricolor flags, Putin delivered a characteristic performance filled with earthy language, macho swagger and sarcastic jibes, accusing the West of promoting an "unconstitutional coup" in Ukraine. At one point he compared the U.S. role to an experiment with "lab rats."

But the overall message appeared to be one of de-escalation. "It seems to me (Ukraine) is gradually stabilizing," Putin said. "We have no enemies in Ukraine. Ukraine is a friendly state."

He tempered those comments by warning that Russia was willing to use "all means at our disposal" to protect ethnic Russians in the country.



Secretary of State John Kerry arrived in Kiev Tuesday to show support for the country's government. Kerry touched down as the U.S. announced a $1 billion aid package to Ukraine amid worries that Moscow would extend its military reach. (March 4)


Significantly, Russia agreed to a NATO request to hold a special meeting to discuss Ukraine on Wednesday in Brussels, opening up a possible diplomatic channel in a conflict that still holds monumental hazards and uncertainties.

While the threat of military confrontation retreated somewhat Tuesday, both sides ramped up economic feuding in their struggle over Ukraine. Russia hit its nearly broke neighbor with a termination of discounts on natural gas, while the U.S. announced a $1 billion aid package in energy subsidies to Ukraine.

"We are going to do our best (to help you). We are going to try very hard," Kerry said upon arriving in Kiev. "We hope Russia will respect the election that you are going to have."

Ukraine's finance minister, who has said Ukraine needs $35 billion to get through this year and next, was meeting Tuesday with officials from the International Monetary Fund.

World stock markets, which slumped the previous day, clawed back a large chunk of their losses Tuesday on signs that Russia was backpedaling. Gold, the Japanese yen and U.S. treasuries — all seen as safe havens — returned some of their gains. Russia's RTS index, which fell 12 percent on Monday rose 6.2 percent Tuesday. In the U.S., the Dow Jones industrial average was up 1.2 percent.

"Confidence in equity markets has been restored as the standoff between Ukraine and Russia is no longer on red alert," said David Madden, market analyst at IG.

Russia took over the strategic peninsula of Crimea on Saturday, placing its troops around its ferry, military bases and border posts. Two Ukrainian warships remained anchored in the Crimean port of Sevastopol, blocked from leaving by Russian ships.

"Those unknown people without insignia who have seized administrative buildings and airports ... what we are seeing is a kind of velvet invasion," said Russian military analyst Alexander Golts.

The territory's enduring volatility was put in stark relief Tuesday morning: Russian troops, who had taken control of the Belbek air base, fired warning shots into the air as some 300 Ukrainian soldiers, who previously manned the airfield, demanded their jobs back.

As the Ukrainians marched unarmed toward the base, about a dozen Russian soldiers told them not to approach, then fired several shots into the air and said they would shoot the Ukrainians if they continued toward them.



In the wake of Russia's control of Ukraine's strategic Crimean peninsula, analysts say the Western opposition should deploy tough economic sanctions to encourage Russia to scale back its presence. (March 3)


The Ukrainian troops vowed to hold whatever ground they had left on the Belbek base.

"We are worried. But we will not give up our base," said Capt. Nikolai Syomko, an air force radio electrician holding an AK47. He said the soldiers felt they were being held hostage, caught between Russia and Ukraine. There were no other reports of significant armed confrontations Tuesday in Ukraine.

Amid the tensions, the Russian military on Tuesday test-fired a Topol intercontinental ballistic missile. The missile, fired from a launch pad in southern Russia, hit a designated target on a range leased by Russia from Kazakhstan.

The new Ukrainian leadership in Kiev, which Putin does not recognize, has accused Moscow of a military invasion in Crimea, which the Russian leader denied.

Ukraine's prime minister expressed hope Tuesday that a negotiated solution could be found. Arseniy Yatsenyuk told a news conference that both governments were talking again, albeit slowly.



President Vladimir Putin answers journalists' questions on current situation in Ukraine at the Novo-Ogaryovo presidential residence outside Moscow on Tuesday, March 4, 2014. Putin accused the West of encouraging an "unconstitutional coup" in Ukraine, Vladimir Putin said Tuesday that Moscow reserves the right to use all means to protect Russians there. (AP Photo/RIA Novosti, Alexei Nikolsky, Presidential Press Service)


"We hope that Russia will understand its responsibility in destabilizing the security situation in Europe, that Russia will realize that Ukraine is an independent state and that Russian troops will leave the territory of Ukraine," he said.

In his hour-long meeting with reporters Tuesday, Putin said Russia had no intention of annexing Crimea, while insisting its residents have the right to determine the region's status in a referendum later this month. Crimean tensions, Putin said, "have been settled."

He said massive military maneuvers Russia has conducted involving 150,000 troops near Ukraine's border were previously planned and were unrelated to the current situation in Ukraine. Russia announced that Putin had ordered the troops back to their bases.

Putin hammered away at his message that the West was to blame for Ukraine's turmoil, saying its actions were driving Ukraine into anarchy. He warned that any sanctions the United States and European Union place on Russia for its actions will backfire.

Russia's Foreign Ministry derided American threats of punitive measures as a "failure to enforce its will and its vision of the right and wrong side of history" — a swipe at President Barack Obama's statement Monday that Russia was "on the wrong side of history."



Russian soldiers fire warning shots at the Belbek air base, outside Sevastopol, Ukraine, on Tuesday, March 4, 2014. Russian troops, who had taken control over Belbek airbase, fired warning shots in the air as around 300 Ukrainian officers marched towards them to demand their jobs back. (AP Photo/Ivan Sekretarev)


The EU was to hold an emergency summit Thursday on whether to impose sanctions.

Moscow has insisted that the Russian military deployment in Crimea has remained within the limits set by a bilateral agreement concerning Russia's Black Sea Fleet military base there. At the United Nations, Russia's ambassador to the U.N., Vitaly Churkin, said Russia was entitled to deploy up to 25,000 troops in Crimea under that agreement.

The Russian president also asserted that Ukraine's 22,000-strong force in Crimea had dissolved and its arsenals had fallen under the control of the local government. He didn't explain if that meant the Ukrainian soldiers had just left their posts or if they had switched allegiance from Kiev to the local pro-Russian government.

Putin accused the West of using fugitive President Viktor Yanukovych's decision in November to ditch a pact with the EU in favor of closer ties with Russia to fan the protests that drove him from power and plunged Ukraine into turmoil.

"I have told them a thousand times 'Why are you splitting the country?'" he said.



A man wearing camouflage uniform holds a candle during the funeral of Volodymyr Topiy, 59, who was found burned in the house of trade unions in Kiev's Independence Square during recent clashes with police, Ukraine, Tuesday, March 4, 2014. Vladimir Putin ordered tens of thousands of Russian troops participating in military exercises near Ukraine's border to return to their bases as U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry was on his way to Kiev. Tensions remained high in the strategic Ukrainian peninsula of Crimea with troops loyal to Moscow fired warning shots to ward off protesting Ukrainian soldiers. (AP Photo/Emilio Morenatti)


While he said he still considers Yanukovych to be Ukraine's legitimate president, he acknowledged that the fallen leader has no political future — and said Russia gave him shelter only to save his life. Ukraine's new government wants to put Yanukovych on trial for the deaths of over 80 people during protests last month in Kiev.

Putin had withering words for Yanukovych, with whom he has never been close.

Asked if he harbors any sympathy for the fugitive president, Putin replied that he has "quite opposite feelings."

http://news.yahoo.com/putin-cools-tensions-ukraine-kerry-kiev-210507223.html

[Buster's Uncle]

I don't really want to argue anywhere. I wish I hadn't said that because I don't want to alienate anyone, but I thought it needed pointing out at the time. Maybe I'll lie low here for a while.

Well, look at the conversation we've had in this thread - passion, but no acrimony.  You know you're wanted here. 

And I think we've built a community where it's unusually safe/comfortable to disagree.  I've been enjoying that creationism conversation for a few days - people who disagree in some pretty fundamental ways have found a lot of common ground, with a conservative Christian, an agnostic, a very orthodox Jew and two atheists learning from each other...  I love it.

I just hope and pray for peaceful resolution.

Amen.

[Rusty Edge]

Thanks a lot.

Maybe I'm just in a sensitive mood. Or maybe I'm reading too much into things, looking at various internet forums from the same perspective as confrontations between world leaders. Somebody sticks their neck out and then things get worse when there's no way to back down or bow out without losing face. That applies to me, too.

[JarlWolf]

Yeah... I don't criticize you at all, and some of the things that Ukrainian said was true- but he was also from a highly biased camp of people and given he was in the Soviet army, it comes to the question as to why he left... he very well could've done something to earn that enmity. The school systems across the board used Russian as a standardized language for reasons of removing borders between the entire Soviet Union, not for assimilating people- languages were not banned from being spoken, at least not from the public. In institutions it was a different story, but a similar notion could be derived on Cajuns or Spanish speaking Mexican-Americans, or a big one especially, native groups in the United States, not being able to speak their languages freely in institutions.

As BUncle said, were all fairly tolerant here. For the most part I think as to why were all tolerant of each others (varied) opinions is because we are all relatively mature, and many of us are fairly aged and been through and know what intolerance leads to, regardless of our background.

And that's something this younger generation could learn from, something this generation of politics could look at... though its not because of younger leadership purely, no. Part of it is conflicting views of an old stubborn generation that has yet to die out, and hasn't learned from the hatred of the past.

Thanks a lot.

Maybe I'm just in a sensitive mood. Or maybe I'm reading too much into things, looking at various internet forums from the same perspective as confrontations between world leaders. Somebody sticks their neck out and then things get worse when there's no way to back down or bow out without losing face. That applies to me, too.

I wouldn't worry at all Rusty, I know how you feel; I am an old Soviet warhorse who has some fairly strong opinions, and is fairly passionate on many of these issues. I obviously hold a different opinion then many people on this site, let alone the rest of the internet; and it is why I don't frequent other forums because of a fairly harsh backlash for merely sharing an opinion. Here there is tolerance.

This forum is one of the few places where there truly is a degree of freedom of speech. The internet may be anarchist, but the people using it are authoritarians for the most bit..

[Buster's Uncle]

Thanks a lot.

Maybe I'm just in a sensitive mood. Or maybe I'm reading too much into things, looking at various internet forums from the same perspective as confrontations between world leaders. Somebody sticks their neck out and then things get worse when there's no way to back down or bow out without losing face. That applies to me, too.

Between you and me, Zik is a prince among men, and you're worrying too much - just look at his sig.  But you definitely should hide out here.

[Buster's Uncle]

But just look - we got us a genuine freekin' communist Russian here for a friend.  And a sensible creationist.  And the most hardcore Jew I've ever met.  And diverse people from around the world, united in having manners, class and emotional perspective.  Also Uno.  Good lord, I love this learning opportunity.

How strong is the evidence that the US is to blame for the opposition takeover, anyway?

?

[Rusty Edge]

I don't have a problem with Recreation Commons, just the internet in general.

As for my student, he was drafted into the Soviet Army. He served two years. He drove one of those awesome Ural trucks. He couldn't understand why the American army used smaller trucks that were more complicated and harder to maintain. 

He told me that the enlisted part of the army was divided into groups, a new one every 6 months, sort of like freshmen/sophomores/juniors/seniors  .  The seniors were bullies. It didn't sound like any way to run an army to me, but come to think of it, it's not so different from the way things were at West Point in the 1970s. ( One of my friends went there. There were plenty of people on crutches and in casts  from hazing incidents. ) . As far as I known, my Ukranian student was discharged at the end of his enlistment.

He was educated in art and he said he was/wanted to be a furniture designer.  There didn't seem to be a comparable job here, so far as he could explain things to me. Here he worked as a rod man on a survey crew, and was learning computer assisted design the last I saw of him.

He was a very kind and good natured guy, and easy to get along with.  There was an exception.
Sometimes we used a room that was a women's resource center during the day. Once he read some inspirational story on the bulletin board, about a woman with a miserable childhood and life turning things around starting her own business.

He was shocked to learn that a man would have ever have sex with his own daughter, and refused to believe that anything like that could happen in the Soviet Union, same with gays, because he never heard of it.

[Buster's Uncle]

I don't have a problem with Recreation Commons, just the internet in general.

You're telling me.  Back in September, someone formerly my favorite internet friend - well, the back wound (one of too many) still bleeds on bad nights when the insomnia kicks in.  I've cleaned up my act SO much over five years of heavy forum activity, and sometimes the SOBs can really get you down, no matter what you do, how careful you get.

And that's what's had me not in the mood to chat for months.  A(nother) stone in my heart.  The hits just keep on comin'.


I try not to dwell on it - there are certainly compensations, as I mentioned above.

[JarlWolf]

I don't have a problem with Recreation Commons, just the internet in general.

As for my student, he was drafted into the Soviet Army. He served two years. He drove one of those awesome Ural trucks. He couldn't understand why the American army used smaller trucks that were more complicated and harder to maintain. 

He told me that the enlisted part of the army was divided into groups, a new one every 6 months, sort of like freshmen/sophomores/juniors/seniors  .  The seniors were bullies. It didn't sound like any way to run an army to me, but come to think of it, it's not so different from the way things were at West Point in the 1970s. ( One of my friends went there. There were plenty of people on crutches and in casts  from hazing incidents. ) . As far as I known, my Ukranian student was discharged at the end of his enlistment.

He was educated in art and he said he was/wanted to be a furniture designer.  There didn't seem to be a comparable job here, so far as he could explain things to me. Here he worked as a rod man on a survey crew, and was learning computer assisted design the last I saw of him.

He was a very kind and good natured guy, and easy to get along with.  There was an exception.
Sometimes we used a room that was a women's resource center during the day. Once he read some inspirational story on the bulletin board, about a woman with a miserable childhood and life turning things around starting her own business.

He was shocked to learn that a man would have ever have sex with his own daughter, and refused to believe that anything like that could happen in the Soviet Union, same with gays, because he never heard of it.

Bullying within the Soviet, and Russian army was actually fairly commonplace, especially amongst the conscript divisions. Conscripts are known to have a fair bit of discipline enforced on them because they are often fairly unruly to begin with. In his case he probably got tired of the bullying, did something drastic and he got in trouble for it; unfortunate but it happens.
Bullying was primarily of some of the officers running the conscript divisions and lots of these guys were a fair bunch of [progeny of unmarried parents] pricks. I was a volunteer and educated in field engineering, so I avoided that because I went into the established army, not the conscript divisions. I have dealt with conscripts myself, and their CO's:

And I can tell you personally I've both beaten and punished both unruly conscripts, and especially in my last years of service, I didn't care much for how their CO's were treating the conscripts stationed at my base, and I used to make the CO's wash all the boots with a cloth if I caught them bullying and harassing their soldiers. There is discipline and physical punishment which is to be done on actual cases of misconduct; and then there is just being an egotistical scum.

Take a look at this video; this will detail these young ***wipes.

Training in russian army

Suka CO's. The usage of contract soldiers now only has worsened the situation of bullying as contract soldiers exploit loopholes and they misbehave and have horrible attitudes, and are disobedient.

I might be a fair bit of a jackboot militarist but I treated my men with respect. And if I found disrespect I booted them into condition, I have absolutely no tolerance for misconduct... soldiery is a professional position and is to be treated as such...

On the account of rape and such within the Soviet Union, the police network was fairly good. People WERE safe. And I found, from speaking to my wife, the culture in America does not treat women with as much respect as we do in my country and the Eastern Bloc in general. Women are treated fairly and its not just due to Communist ideology imprinting society, its culturally too.

However, homosexuality did exist; its just it wasn't that big and open in society. You didn't hear about it and those who were kept quietly to themselves; didn't flaunt it.

[gwillybj]

a little something to lighten the mood:

Camera Lowered Into Deep Ocean Trench Finds Unexpected Creatures
By Rich McCormick on March 4, 2014 05:13 am

Scientists have taken their first look into the previously unexplored New Hebrides deep-sea trench in the Pacific Ocean. At the bottom of the trench — a depth of more than 23,000 feet (7,000 meters) — they found a surprising group of creatures unlike those found in other deep trenches around the world.

The expedition was carried out by the University of Aberdeen's Oceanlab team in association with New Zealand's National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research. An unmanned lander fitted with cameras descended into the trench between the islands of New Caledonia and Vanuatu off Australia's eastern coast.

Dr. Alan Jamieson, who worked on the University's Oceanlab team, described the unexpected findings. "The surprising thing was that there was a complete and utter lack of one of the most common deep sea fish we would expect to see. Anywhere else around the Pacific Rim, around the trenches we've looked at, you see a lot of grenadiers — they are quite a conspicuous part of the deep-sea community. But when we went to the New Hebrides trench, we didn't see a single one." Also missing were snail fish, small, pink creatures with large heads, often found in deep-sea trenches.

Instead, the expedition found an ecosystem built around other animals. Large red shrimp scuttled across the trench's floor, joined by eel pouts, arrow-tooth eels and "thousands of smaller crustaceans," some of which the lander was able to collect and bring to the surface. The expedition also found a surprising abundance of Cusk-eels. Jamieson says the eels have appeared in other deep-sea trenches across the world, but in "very, very low numbers." In the New Hebrides trench, Jamieson says the eels were common.



The difference in ecosystem, Jamieson and the scientists believe, is due to the "very unproductive" water above the trench. Without sufficient nutrients in the shallower sea off the coast of New Caledonia, fish that rely upon higher food quantities — such as the grenadiers the scientists expected to find — are unable to survive. Cusk-eels, on the other hand, are specialists in very low food areas. Jamieson says that each deep-sea trench is such a strange environment that scientists can't set solid expectations for what kind of creatures they'll discover. "We're starting to find out that what happens at one trench doesn't necessarily represent what happens in all the trenches."

http://www.theverge.com/2014/3/4/5469016/new-hebrides-trench-explored-unexpected-eels-found

[Geo]

On bullying in the Soviet Army, back in the late eighties/early nineties I've read articles about some sort of mothers organisation accusing the death of their sons during their conscript time.

[Buster's Uncle]

That's a slippery subject; armies run on bullying, by the nature of the thing.  A soldier is going to get told to go over the top when it's clearly not in his personal best interest, and he better be more afraid of Sarge than getting killed, or the army doesn't work as an army.  All the rest naturally follows.

[Geo]

Guess I was lucky to avoid all that (I was discharged for conscription after medical exam).