The Reading Corner.

[JarlWolf]

Mhm... the amount of perversions in their writing are, and I sincerely apologize for this pun/term, shoved down our throats as we read it. But on the other hand the hard cynical outlook they develop also makes the novel more darker in some aspects, and not just in a perverted sense.

I remember reading I have no mouth but I must scream. Such a sadistic story, but it has quite a really strong humanist outlook message if you get past the crazy alterations and horrific social experiments. Apparently there was also a game produced on it during the 90's, was one of those point and click puzzler types, had a moral system for actions, and some of them were really obvious, kind of dumbed down the story in my opinion but the variety of choices was still pretty neat.

On the note of Dune, been ages since I've read them. I remember I still have an old VHS/VCR type tape of a movie they made, I'll have to dig it out later to find out which one it was based on. All I remember is it was produced in 1984 I think- that or around that time. I had a collection of them and I think the latest one in it was produced 1987.

[Buster's Uncle]

Heinlein had it hyper-bad in his last decade, that's for sure.  -But I don't really see it with Herbert.

I think you're the only person I've ever heard express that much admiration for God Emperor.  Most fans seem to have hated it.  I suppose it didn't give them what they'd come to expect from the other books.  It certainly had the least action/adventure of all of them.

[Lord Avalon]

I hated God Emperor, stopped reading the series at that point.  Tried a couple of the Brian Herbert books and stopped.

[Sigma]

Heinlein had it hyper-bad in his last decade, that's for sure.  -But I don't really see it with Herbert.

I think you're the only person I've ever heard express that much admiration for God Emperor.  Most fans seem to have hated it.  I suppose it didn't give them what they'd come to expect from the other books.  It certainly had the least action/adventure of all of them.

Though to be fair Heinlein also had it pretty bad in his early years to. Though arguably I Will Fear No Evil was probably half written by his wife so it may not count.

I'm currently 7/8ths of the way through Neal Stephenson's Baroque Cycle. I actually do most of my reading on audiobooks when working or driving, since I find that I don't have as much time anymore for actual reading. But all of the Baroque Cycle books are narrated by Simon Prebble who has probably the best British narrator voice I've ever listened to.

Oh and if you have the chance, everyone should read Hannu Rajaneimi's books The Quantum Thief and The Fractal Prince which are probably the best science fiction novels written in the past decade.

[Buster's Uncle]

I'd still like an explication of the dirty old man charge against Herbert - I fancy that I know at least the Dune books pretty well, and I don't see it.

Heinlein was a disgusting pervert who, indeed, shoved it down our throats, mind you...

...

Jarl, the mid-eighties movie was the one David Lynch directed, which I thought was one of the most disappointing movies ever made (it HAS grown on me over the years, and the "edited for TV" version that begins with illustrated backstory instead of Princess Irulan isn't nearly as awful).  The two miniseries from around the turn of the century were, in my opinion, much, MUCH better, though opinion on that among fans is all over the place.

...

Avalon, those prequels were rancid.  I question whether Brian Herbert and Kevin Adnerson even read the same Dune series as the rest of us.  I mean, those books are so wrong-headed and just plain bad that I still feel a little angry that they were published and someone got paid for writing puking them out.

[JarlWolf]

Mind I never said the movie was good. Just that I had it.

Re-watched it though, and its got that irritating habit lots of movies from the 70's 80's had- the internal whispering nonsense they always put in scenes. It just seems awkward and it doesn't work in film that great.

But alas I am derailing the thread talking of films. (Though we do need a film corner.)

On another note, I am tempted to pick up the Silmarrion again and read t but from what I remember it was a labour reading it and ardous due to the language and dialect it used. [progeny of unmarried parents] Faroese combined with Tolkien english is not an easy read...

[Buster's Uncle]

Love.  Love.  LOVE The Silmarillion - but that might have to do with a lot of time as a child spent reading The Bible, and being accustomed to history told in that sort of style and format.

[Sigma]

I'd still like an explication of the dirty old man charge against Herbert - I fancy that I know at least the Dune books pretty well, and I don't see it.

Heretics and Chapterhouse both have very explicit sex scenes, and Chapterhouse in particular has those scenes involving fairly young characters. I wasn't quite as uncomfortable as the one scene in Stephen King's IT, but they're much more pronounced and kind of jarring compared to the first three novels.

Then again the second half of the original Dune series is almost a completely different thing from the first half, as they basically descend into a somewhat pulpy space opera compared to the original novels being more grounded meditations on the nature of divinity and economics.

[Buster's Uncle]

Okay, I thought of the sex scenes, of course, when you first said that, but we're not talking about anything within an order of magnitude as sick as late Heinlein and his obsession with incest.

[JarlWolf]

Hmm... personally as someone who likes to write I only use sexual intercourse or such things in any of my hobbied works for an actual story purpose: and that's to show an intimacy or passion, or how someone uses someone. For my AAR I was probably planning a relationship of sorts, and I'd keep it mild (I wouldn't be explicitly saying SHOVE IT IN THE REAR type mentality and make it a pornography) but there would be sensual bits.

The Silmarrion has a great amount of story to it and it really fleshes out Tolkiens universe, but unlike you I did not read The Bible or Qu'ran and was never brought up with religious story or tales. I learned of them of course later on but if anything my entire childhood and youth was devoid of religion. Where I live in particular now people are either of 3 camps: Most are apathetic atheists, a fair number (still a minority) are Orthodox Church and there is a fair bit of Muslims, mainly Sunni here. Go further south and you get more and more Muslims mixed with atheists. The Orthodox church is mainly implanted in the Western European regions of my country, but most people in the rest are atheist, with a huge amount of Muslims spanning along the Central Asian national borders and regions. And you do not want to go in the far central southern borders, there is very violent Shia Muslim groups and sects. And I forgive anyone who is Muslim here in advance for any ignorance I exhibit but I genuinely fear Muslim extremists and gangs, and I have good reason to (the same fear also goes towards fascists.) There is nothing scarier in people then a man hell bent on spiritual convictions and he thinks you are scum to be rid of. Men like that become relentless and merciless and they are terrifying to confront, and I speak from experience. But mind that's not a justification for persecution of an entire group of people either.

edit: And Heinlein took it too far most of the time. His works became less of a read and spiraled into a incest-fest in his late years.

I liked Children of Hurin for Tolkien, good read and it really gave some background to the different regions of Middle Earth.

[Sigma]

I'd still like an explication of the dirty old man charge against Herbert - I fancy that I know at least the Dune books pretty well, and I don't see it.

Heinlein was a disgusting pervert who, indeed, shoved it down our throats, mind you...

Though Heinlein did write The Moon is a Harsh Mistress so he gets an infinite pass with me.

Part of Heinlein's problem is that he puts characters in his books that are so obviously mouthpieces for his own views that it's impossible to separate the fairly horrible things that his characters say from him. He's like Ayn Rand in that way, except his prose is infinitely more readable, and he's less apt to make his antagonists obvious straw men (especially since in most of his books there aren't precisely identified villains but society as a whole).

Jarl, the mid-eighties movie was the one David Lynch directed, which I thought was one of the most disappointing movies ever made (it HAS grown on me over the years, and the "edited for TV" version that begins with illustrated backstory instead of Princess Irulan isn't nearly as awful).  The two miniseries from around the turn of the century were, in my opinion, much, MUCH better, though opinion on that among fans is all over the place.

...

Avalon, those prequels were rancid.  I question whether Brian Herbert and Kevin Adnerson even read the same Dune series as the rest of us.  I mean, those books are so wrong-headed and just plain bad that I still feel a little angry that they were published and someone got paid for writing puking them out.

The Dune miniseries are definitely more faithful to the book, but they commit the cardinal crime of being kind of boring. At the very least David Lynch's movie is interesting to look at and, to an extent, captures the spirit of the books rather than the miniseries which are sort of content just to translate the words onto the screen.

The real tragedy is that we never got Alexander Jodorovsky's Dune movie, which would have been an insane four out epic starring Jodorovsky's son, Mick Jagger and Salvador Dali as Emperor Shaddam, who sits on a toilet throne sculpted to look like two dolphins next to an identical robotic mannequin. It definitely would not have been faithful to the text but it would have been a true spectacle.

Supposedly Brian and Kevin's Dune books are based on Frank Herbert's notes, which wouldn't surprise me given the way that the later half of the series was going, but everything I've heard about them makes me glad that I never read them.

[Geo]

I think the best side description of sex in a scifi novel was in A Fire upon the Deep by Vernor Vinge, when Ravna and Pham went at it. The Old One either needs lots of bandwidth to control 'events', or peek in. 

[Sigma]

I think the best side description of sex in a scifi novel was in A Fire upon the Deep by Vernor Vinge, when Ravna and Pham went at it. The Old One either needs lots of bandwidth to control 'events', or peek in. 

I love A Fire Upon the Deep and its sequel A Deepness in the Sky immensely, but I couldn't get more than a few dozen pages into Children of the Sky. What I wanted as a sequel to Fire set centuries ahead where the descendents of the humans and the tines explore the galaxy as buddies. Mans best friend! Instead the result bored me to tears in record time.

Has anyone here read Embassytown by China Mieville? Now THAT's a story.

[Buster's Uncle]

Jarl, that's exactly my point; not only is The Silmarillion written in my native language, it's done in a pseudo-biblical tone that I happen to be more comfortable with than most.  Tolkien was a devout Catholic, you know, and the history of Middle Earth strongly indicates that he was a rather reactionary conservative, too.  There's all kinds of layers of difference between you and him, and how you see the world.  I'm no Catholic, but I'm still a lot closer to being his natural audience.  I think that I loved it, and many people can't get into it at all, reflects that.

[Geo]

I love A Fire Upon the Deep and its sequel A Deepness in the Sky immensely, but I couldn't get more than a few dozen pages into Children of the Sky. What I wanted as a sequel to Fire set centuries ahead where the descendents of the humans and the tines explore the galaxy as buddies. Mans best friend! Instead the result bored me to tears in record time.

Aye, the swich from a galactic novel to a provincial clash of viewpoints does indeed sound lame.
Haven't read the novel though, AFAIK it's not available on my side of the Atlantic.

Has anyone here read Embassytown by China Mieville? Now THAT's a story.

AFAIK, nope.