Election thread

[cryopyre]

I am, and shall remain, a grumpy old man on this subject...

It's alright, I'm still young. I'm sure once I get older technology and young people will piss me off too.

[Buster's Uncle]

I was a fairly early adapter on home computers -1982 or so- it WILL happen to you in a decade or two.


Any thoughts on the voter ID thing that might surprize me?

[cryopyre]

I was a fairly early adapter on home computers -1982 or so- it WILL happen to you in a decade or two.


Any thoughts on the voter ID thing that might surprize me?

If you don't mind me asking, how old are you?

As for my views on voter ID, I doubt my view will surprise you. I'm against it. I live in Arizona, so I get to see all of the wonderful racism attached to these things. I've seen the Mexican side of my family get harassed all of the time, and I'm quite tired of it. I'm just glad my skin only looks like a tanned white guy's, because I get harassed a lot less than most of my family.

[Buster's Uncle]

I'm 47 and white as a sheet.   My 48th birthday is in about three weeks, BTW.

And leaving the racism part out (which no one should, because it's real even if the white people don't encounter it every day, and so tend not believe most of it, even the racists - especially most of the racists), it's as simple as the wealth party screwing with the poor.  C'mon; that's just not kosher.

[cryopyre]

I'm 47 and white as a sheet.   My 48th birthday is in about three weeks, BTW.

And leaving the racism part out (which no one should, because it's real even if the white people don't encounter it every day, and so tend not believe most of it, even the racists - especially most of the racists), it's as simple as the wealth party screwing with the poor.  C'mon; that's just not kosher.

I'm 20 for the record. I feel like a baby by SMAC fan standards.

I agree with you on the wealthy screwing the poor, but that's par for the course. The thing I find ironic, though, is that strict immigration standards tend to be promoted by the right wing, despite the fact that limiting the flow of labor is about as far from the free market as possible. By restricting the flow of labor and increasing the flow of capital the right wing essentially enforces poverty and keeps development in other countries restricted. Free market my ass.

Not that I'm a proponent of capitalism, it's just an internally inconsistent position.

[Buster's Uncle]

You know, there's a point in there underlining the schizophrenia of the Republican party.  The Cheney administration sided with big business interests every. single. time., no matter what.  You're possibly to young to have been aware of the business where they backed regulations that considerably extended how far into the US Mexican truckers were allows to go before they had to stop and off-load their cargo.  I don't have to have watched Lou Dobbs (or any of the openly Mexican-hating element) around then to know how that went over with their (frankly Mexican-hating) base.  It was just a terrible political move.  But that's the Bush occupation all over for you; business interests always won with them, and business likes cheap labor.

Racists, on the other hand, like police.  Schizo party, the Republicans.

[cryopyre]

You know, there's a point in there underlining the schizophrenia of the Republican party.  The Cheney administration sided with big business interests every. single. time., no matter what.  You're possibly to young to have been aware of the business where they backed regulations that considerably extended how far into the US Mexican truckers were allows to go before they had to stop and off-load their cargo.  I don't have to have watched Lou Dobbs (or any of the openly Mexican-hating element) around then to know how that went over with their (frankly Mexican-hating) base.  It was just a terrible political move.  But that's the Bush occupation all over for you; business interests always won with them, and business likes cheap labor.

Yeah, I didn't start to get into politics until I was about 16, so most of my knowledge comes from reading about past events rather than remembering/experiencing their effects. The only political stuff I remember from before then was mostly racism: I'm related to several illegal immigrants, although I myself am legal. I remember my dad getting stopped for a lot of "random" checks at the airport for being brown, the only Bush policies I remember were post 9/11 racism.

Mind-bogglingly, though, many of my Mexican relatives are hardcore conservatives. Hell, some of my illegal-alien relatives are now hardcore conservatives that themselves hate illegal immigrants now. That's Fox News for you.

[Buster's Uncle]

I actually see the sense in that, and why the talking heads are obsessed with latins this week - they've lost the blacks pretty much forever, or until a lot more blacks aren't poor. 

Latins?  How can any good hardcore old-school Catholic not find some attraction to the social conservative wing of the right, if only the social conservatives weren't the racists too?

(I know I'm offending  many conservatives reading, and I appologize for that; it's just the facts as I know them, and I WILL tell some stories from things I've seen and heard in my life if I'm challenged on this point.)

[cryopyre]

I actually see the sense in that, and why the talking heads are obsessed with latins this week - they've lost the blacks pretty much forever, or until a lot more blacks aren't poor. 

Latins?  How can any good hardcore old-school Catholic not find some attraction to the social conservative wing of the right, if only the social conservatives weren't the racists too?

(I know I'm offending  many conservatives reading, and I appologize for that; it's just the facts as I know them, and I WILL tell some stories from things I've seen and heard in my life if I'm challenged on this point.)

You hit the nail on the head there. I just wish my relatives would have different priorities. But they care more about mandating Christian morality than ensuring their own wellbeing against racists.

[Buster's Uncle]

Try that theological point I made about rendering unto Ceasar.  Their duty to Christian values and Holy Mother Church is not a political one; Ceasar is not the friend of Holy Mother Church no matter what the Pope and their pastor may think, and they should be preaching their personal values, not trying to FORCE them on others. 

Persuasion works better than laws, too.  Laws are the Pharisee way, not Christ's way.

[Rusty Edge]

My way of interpreting it to others is to say that I thought the whole point of the new testament was that trying to keep the law does not make you good or Godly.

The law cannot solve that problem.

[Buster's Uncle]

I think that New Covenant theology is from Martin Luther, and Catholics don't go in for it...

Good point, though.

[JarlWolf]

Persuasion works better than laws, too. 

The beauty of that statement is that it can be applied to almost any ideal or faith as well. To enforce an ideal is to strike it into someone, in which they will often come to despise later. To teach and promote healthily however promotes tolerance.

[Buster's Uncle]

Yes.

[Rusty Edge]

I think that New Covenant theology is from Martin Luther, and Catholics don't go in for it...

Good point, though.

I think of it as mostly St Paul theology as in the Book of Hebrews, as best example.

As for the Catholics... Oh.  I suppose you're right.

But the cultural conservatives in your part of the country should be well-versed enough to understand my argument.