Building a Community

[Vishniac]

He's one of us, now.  -And really a newb.

Send him to the thread about a new game! 

[Buster's Uncle]

He's not ready for MP, pal-o-mine, much as I'd like to throw you some fresh meat.

[vv221]

Forums are not like girlfriends - you can have more than one.

Wait, you can't have more than one girlfriend at a time?
Where is the fun in such artificial limitations?

 

[Buster's Uncle]

But you're French.  It's different most places.

[ete]

BU, if you don't want to hear about donations, don't read this. I'm replying to Aeson, and putting my thoughts on his thoughts out there for others.

Aeson: Most of those are reasonable points (and thank you for using logic rather than underlined foot putting down and dead bodies, let it never be said that I don't like a calm debate), but both of the models I'm suggesting do not run into most of the problems you bring up, and brings many of the advantages. Specifics: I am in favor of a primarily recurring donation model, which does not rely on one-time donations at all. If donors demand unreasonable things, they should be ignored, and adverts available to switch to as a backup source of income so no one can hold a site hostage. I am also in favor of an open and accountable use of adverts, where the income is deemed worthwhile to the community. If what the money is being spent on is out in the open and the community gets a fair say in what to use it on (not actually voting on it or anything, just knowing what's happening and the admins listening to their suggestions), I am actually cool with adverts. Again: I am okay with adverts if they're done reasonably. However, I have worked on a site which had poor administration due to the leader making money off the backs of contributors without giving anything back for years, ads with everything kept secret do come with potentially major disadvantages beyond making a site look ugly.

[Aeson]

I don't think you can blame ads for a bad owner. Ad-free sites can have bad owners/management too. I can understand being upset if you find out that you've been doing a lot of work for someone who is now profiting off that work.

It's important to judge the situation as it is, rather than to try to draw parallels to other situations where there are obvious differences. BU has proven that he's not here for the money. He's worked diligently to improve the site even though he's been paying out of pocket to keep it going. So I think he deserves respect in that regard, and in regards to his intentions. If he says he'd plow back in the profits to improving the site, I would trust him on it. He's already shown he's willing to take a hit (time and money) to do that, and having some extra money from the site would only make it easier to do. He hasn't given us any reason not to trust him. The amount of money we're talking about isn't likely to change a person either

Recurring donations have the same problem as one time donations. They aren't reliable. People can stop them any time they want, for any reason they want. Switching from donor support to ads can be problematic in it's own right. You could get past donors up in arms about how you're profiting off a site they helped build (essentially as investors). There may even be legal ramifications there.

As for what to do with the money, ultimately it's a decision that's in the hands of ownership. I would agree that transparency is a good thing. But it's important to bear in mind that users have been happy to use the site, so implicitly their compensation is the site itself, and the work that's been done to improve the site. The site benefits from their participation, and they benefit from the site.

For staff, that's between the owner and staff. There's important work being done, but also a component where the staff are benefiting from the site (or even from being on the staff). I'd just respect whatever agreement they come to about what compensation, if any, is to be given.

[Aeson]

As for the game, I used to play a lot of SMAC. It's been years since I last played it so I'm probably quite the noob. I did install it just after BE was announced, but I haven't been able to fire up SMAC yet. This is one of the problems of management of a website/forum. There's always more work to do if you're a "hands on" type ...

[Aeson]

In regards to hosting concerns, I've moved all my sites over to DigitalOcean now. Best place I've found for unmanaged VPS. Good prices, good performance.

[Buster's Uncle]

ete, why don't you spit off the conversation about governance, finances and transparency into its own thread?  Title at your discretion . It's important stuff, but not about motivating the membership, my purpose for this thread.

Incidentally, I've had the thought that if I had 20 bucks in hand earmarked to reward some people with, Yitzi would likely get the lion's share - not because of his staff status, but obviously for his diligent labor on a very popular patch.  Content is king, and all, and as a modder-heavy community, we have a lot of content contributors who ought to be high on the priority list.  I also like it when people take an interest in the health of the forum and how it's run, so I'll embarrass you, ete, by pointing out that you'd do really well for that and your long labors on the AC Wiki...

This is only the beginning of an idea without proportions or details worked out...

[Green1]

While unfortunately the way things go is that the admins will usually bear the financial burden, I do not feel anyone would feel put upon if you put a non discreet "tip jug" somewhere on your site.

I do not believe google adsense will pay for the costs because you really need about 50 times the traffic for that.

[Buster's Uncle]

With respect, we're not going to take donations and the subject is closed.  This exact thing is an example of why forums do not work as democracies.  We are nerdz, and will argue forever.  Someone has to make final decisions, or the chaos is eternal and crippling.  I've been on the webs more than five minutes, and I'm expressing an observation of unvarnished fact.

I struggle to work in all the democracy I can, being an authority-figure-hater myself, and terribly uncomfortable in that role.  It does NOT say Admin in my postbit (except when I'm uploading something to Downloads, because tech stuff) for a very good reason - this is, as sisko wisely says in his sig, your place.  However, he may not consider it also his, but I do.  It is yours and it is also mine.  I am a member here, too, and my management style is founded in my style as a pushy common member who took an interest in the health of my forum and how it was run; I got in on the ground floor of a promising new place as a newb before I came here.  I try to position myself as first citizen rather than king, leading through persuasion rather than bringing my powers to bear.  I edited a post the other day for language, something I hadn't had to do (use any of my admin powers on someone) in months - normally, I ask people to regulate themselves and/or do their own edits, but this was a case where I felt anything that could be taken as a scolding might hurt the member's feelings.  I have to balance many factors in this job, and sometimes it's difficult to explain all of them.

Another problem I face is getting satisfactory participation in many efforts to include the membership in decision-making.  You (generic whoever's reading) may not care about smilies if you're even aware of the thread in Rec Commons.  Fine, but when only Geo comments, only he and I get a vote.  That's democracy in action, and if you read that thread, you'll find me indulging myself very little and consistently seeking input and making revisions based on any input I can manage to get.  This is an ongoing fun forum project of mine, and when there's little attention paid, I am bothered as a creator and as a manager alike.

The more people give me feedback, the more democratic AC2 is.  Period.  That has always been the case, and forgive me if as a person and a member, as well as a manager, I find suggestions based in the assumption that I am or will be less than egalitarian deeply offensive, and wrong as a matter of widely-demonstrated provable fact.

But someone has to make the calls, and I got stuck with the job here.

Democracy begins with people taking opportunities to vote and be heard.  The citizen Rules thread is stickied below this one.  Considerable power is there to be grasped by anyone who choses and can make their case.

[Green1]

You have answered your own questions. Do as you feel you must. There are many forums that exist small and large as charities and purposes in life because the admins want them to be. They vary from cool places to eventually nonexistent depending on those admins.  Is this worth money to the admins? If it is a charity, let posters hear no more.  Do the posters care or just want content and things to discuss? Welcome to the fold.

Is this a bad thing? Not necessarily. Can it be? You bet, given the right circumstances.

[Geo]

I achieved bronze!? When did that happen?

[Buster's Uncle]

Bronze?  What?

[Geo]

3th overall poster of the forum.