Politics 2021

[E_T]

I would be interested in a conversation about a strong working definition of fascism, that covered everything from original Nazis to the KKK in whatever incarnation, and maybe even usefully excludes some fash-ish movements...

I have thoughts, but I'd like others to go first - and in the interest of an interesting conversation/intellectual exercise, please tell me what's already in your head, and don't look it up or do any homework in the first round or so.  I want to arrive at OUR definition before we discuss Wikipedia's...

the thing is, whom definition would that be?  After watching some coverage of the March part (before the actual act was committed) of 1/6, it is interesting that the "fascist" were calling the other side "fascist"...  even political definition of terms are subjective....

[E_T]

My Ex was a long time Log Cabin Republican (Gay Republican Organization), before Bush 1 had spoken to one of the Republican Conventions about not wanting (or needing, can;t really remember the exact wording) the gays in the party, so he and his partner, at the time had quit the party.  He had also joined Dems, but was also not liking them much and joined me in the Libertarian Party...  And as far as I know, was (a Libertarian) all the way up to his death on New Years Day, 2010...

[E_T]

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/11/military-right-wing-extremism-457861

Crow, in a call over the weekend with Army Secretary Ryan McCarthy, requested the "expedited investigation and courts-martial against those involved" in last week's riot. The military could also try former personnel in military courts.
The Congress member also said he asked McCarthy to direct the Army’s Criminal Investigation Division to review the backgrounds of all troops who will be deployed at Biden’s inauguration next week “to ensure that deployed members are not sympathetic to domestic terrorists,” his office said in a statement.
And on Monday, Sen. Tammy Duckworth, an Illinois Democrat and Iraq War veteran, also demanded the Pentagon investigate the allegations that troops and military retirees played a role in the storming of the U.S. Capitol by a pro-[Sleezebag] mob.

[Buster's Uncle]

[another damn ninja]  PLEASE do not do homework yet.  I want to know what YOU think.  Not clicking on that, and I want to delete.  Edit: I did when he did it again.

I would be interested in a conversation about a strong working definition of fascism, that covered everything from original Nazis to the KKK in whatever incarnation, and maybe even usefully excludes some fash-ish movements...

I have thoughts, but I'd like others to go first - and in the interest of an interesting conversation/intellectual exercise, please tell me what's already in your head, and don't look it up or do any homework in the first round or so.  I want to arrive at OUR definition before we discuss Wikipedia's...

the thing is, whom definition would that be?  After watching some coverage of the March part (before the actual act was committed) of 1/6, it is interesting that the "fascist" were calling the other side "fascist"...  even political definition of terms are subjective....

This is exactly why I think it would be useful to kick around a definition.

Off the top of my head, we want to include all the movements pretty universally considered fascist, so starting with Mussolini, including Franco and Hitler, the KKK and the Proud Boys (are going to be a problem, I think) and I believe Milosevic's Serbian murder machine is generally included, but not sure, and there are doubtless many others I'm not thinking of - we'll need Geo's Euro input.  We'll probably want to exclude many as not Major enough to muddy the waters with.  Should be interesting to get into kinds of fascism, and probably necessary.  -BushJr was pretty fascist, but does Reagan count?  Stuff like that.

[E_T]

I'm an adherent of Pournelle's Political Definition
http://www.baen.com/chapters/Axes.htm

Now I do not claim this is the model of modern politics; I do claim that it is a far better model than the one we're using, and in fact I go farther and claim that the "left-right" model so ubiquitous amongst us is harmful. And while I understand that some ideologues find the "left-right" model useful to their cause, and thus have a powerful incentive to gloss over its failures, what puzzles me is why so-called objective political "scientists" don't try to abolish it, at least in freshman political science classes.

[Buster's Uncle]

What is wrong with you?  I typed in perfectly good English not to do that.  I'm deleting both your posts temporarily.

I want you to type some of your own thoughts.  I want to read what E_T thinks, not Politico -fashy bunch, btw- not Pournelle -it's complicated, but he's kinda disqualified-.  I have read neither.

[E_T]

then have your echo chamber

[Buster's Uncle]

Wrong.

I have wantonly abused my powers in this, and if you really, really want to spoil what I was trying to get going, I will put those posts back now, noting that you don't care what I really, really want and clearly asked for repeatedly.  Just say.

[Buster's Uncle]

I have restored the posts, mostly to leave the inconsiderate behavior out to see.

Look y'all, I'm crazy, and more than a little stirred up on day eight/year 40 of our ongoing national crisis.  I just wanted to see a first round of the thoughts/opinions we're walking around with already, and if I wanted and echo chamber, I would have gone first -at considerable length. ---

[Buster's Uncle]

---I didn't want to contaminate what you think before you said.

Round two, I figure, if this takes off we'd maybe look up, for instance, Franco and the difference between various incarnations of the Klan and others, and see how more info about clear fascists colors things previously discussed.

Round three, look at actual definitions by others outside our circle and discuss.

Argument is a lot of work to do right and frustrating and too flammable - but there's still a lot of intellectual fun to be had in conversation between friends who may not agree letting their ideas -and even memories- wrestle, and maybe ultimately strive for consensus.  I wish I had explained all this more carefully when I brought it up, but I did not know there was going to be a test, let alone someone peeing on clearly-expressed boundaries from a height.

[Buster's Uncle]

I also see that I was wrong about the first post -just news, but my eyes bounced off the URL that looked like something to do with defining fascism, not wanting to have my own thinking influenced- but right about the second.

My apologies for the mistake.

[Buster's Uncle]

Seen on Twitter:

Biden: I will work with the GOP
Dem base: ooh yes
GOP: Socialist babykilller biden
Biden: We will collaborate
GOP: [Sleezebag] wuz robbed
Biden: We can come together
GOP: Murdermob assemble and murder
Biden: Cut out the malarkey
GOP: Why so divisive. Now we can't cooperate. Your fault.

[Buster's Uncle]

This is Kevin Seefried, who has been arrested -



-in Delaware.  He is a Yankee.

There it is.

[Geo]

Now now, who's to say his ancestors didn't come from Louisiana of all places? 

[Elok]

Staying out of this for reasons discussed in other thread, but here's Devereaux's opinion, on the off-chance you don't do ACOUP like the other nerds: https://acoup.blog/2021/01/15/miscellanea-insurrections-ancient-and-modern-and-also-meet-the-academicats/