Politics 2021

[bvanevery]

Identify, then, the strategic purpose served by 1/6.

From [Sleezebag]'s standpoint, it strengthens his cult and puts money directly in his pocket from cult member donations.

From the standpoint of the insurrectionist groups like the Proud Boys, it demonstrates that they're capable of an action, that they're "tough"... but I'm not sure if they have a strategy. 

Good job, idiots.  From their point of view, it was a complete fiasco. 

The mob didn't have a strategy, and it's unreasonable to expect that it would.  The mob expressed anger.  To the extent that people in the mob are conspiracy theorists, they've lost the locus of control in their lives.  Storming Congress, is taking back their control.  So the mob did get something they wanted out of it, which is to bully and harass Congress and make them afraid again.

A halfway competent insurgent commander could have done actual damage under those circumstances.

This is a fantasy and a distraction.  We've all been talking about insurrection as a matter of law, not as a matter of practical effect.  What we really had here was a riot that took place on "sacred ground".  There was never any credible plan to kill members of Congress.  Bully, harass, and terrorize them, yes, and that mission was accomplished.

This isn't a revolution.  This is an action within the confines of a democratic system, pushing its boundaries really really hard.  Rather than focusing on this as some kind of "failed truck bombing episode", which it clearly wasn't, look at it as directing violent mobs.  Then it's not so funny, because it demonstrates what organizers are capable of:

• support of the Executive branch
• support of the police

since Trumpism is a dead-end overall,

It doesn't have to end.  The product that [Sleezebag] offers, will continue to be a valuable product to many people as long as [Sleezebag] is alive and functioning as head of his cult.  Internet platforms and banks are now determined to make his life difficult though.  In the past, I seem to recall the SPLC bankrupting the Aryan Nations with lawsuits, so it is possible to kill an organization by drying up its money.  That of course doesn't stop neo-Nazism from existing and finding some other way to organize.  This will put evolutionary pressure on [Sleezebag], but as long as he manages to stay alive and in the USA, he can probably do his thing.  He'd have to come up with his own crowdfunding method though.  I suppose the old fashioned expedient of licking a stamp and putting a check in the mail, can still work.

[Buster's Uncle]

As for unshared assumptions, I thought I had referred to them.  To put it more explicitly, you're speaking as if ... how do I put it?  As if there's a solid body of real Americans and a fringe of loons who can be punished.  And also as if getting rid of [Sleezebag] would make those loons significantly less dangerous.  I still believe the country is divided in three (Dem, Rep, Ind/disaffected), they're about equal-sized, and while the rightists differ in fervor and loyalty they will not change their perceived interests just because the doofus goes.  There will continue to be a right-wing party of some description and it will consist of much the same people with broadly similar prejudices to those they have shown their whole lives.  They will have to modify their message, and probably vote in some new messengers, to win over enough of the disaffected middle to gain power again.  Possibly not as much as either of us hopes, though, because the American people have a surprisingly short memory.

The true, true believers might barely change their behavior at all, only remodel themselves as a permanent loyal-opposition-in-exile.  The Shiites have been doing that for over a thousand years and show no sign of slowing down.  It might eventually settle down or fade away, IDK.  Anyway, I should probably be writing or studying or something, so don't take it bad if I don't follow this discussion as closely as you do.

OJ totally did it, and did society [make up your own hyperbole that means "a lot of"] harm getting away with it in public while everyone was watching.  I don't think much of anyone disputes any of that anymore.

This is like that.

[bvanevery]

I don't think much of anyone disputes any of that anymore.

I do, because I never cared enough about OJ's trial to follow it closely.  Soundbites aren't law.  He got tried by a jury of his peers and found Not Guilty.  The legal standard is "beyond a reasonable doubt" and the jury had reasonable doubt.  So, what was the nature of their doubt?  They're just stupid and gullible, and we sitting back on our couches know what really happened?  Since we didn't actually do the work of sitting on the jury, I have my doubts about the level of self-congratulation many people give themselves, about their knowledge of "what happened".

How closely would I have to follow OJ's trial, to change my mind?

Similarly, Zimmerman was found Not Guilty.  Another one of these cases where lots of people declare their "certainty" about what happened.

[Buster's Uncle]

Oh, to my infinite disgust, Daddy watched the trial, and I ended up seeing the Whole Sad Thing - somebody butchered those people, leaving some of his hair on the victims, and tracked some of their blood back to his house.

The more interesting point is that so much of the forensic evidence was collected in an illegal warrantless search that, in a just(er) world, he'd have gotten out on appeal.  The Man is more dangerous to my life and liberty than retired athletes.

But really, let's not talk about OJ.  I made an on-topic point, and you quibble with a dubiously relevant bit.  That we want to belabor the OJ trial 26 years later underscores the damage I was pointing at.   Start a thread or something.

[Buster's Uncle]

He did it, and he did it on TV while we watched.

[bvanevery]

and you quibble with a dubiously relevant bit. 

It's not a quibble.  I challenged your conception of law.  Too often, people act as though the court of public opinion, is a court of law.

That we want to belabor the OJ trial 26 years later underscores the damage I was pointing at.   

Zimmerman is more recent.  The issue of courts of public opinion, does not go away.

Start a thread or something.

OJ isn't about to become some new hobby of mine.  As for starting threads, I was under the impression that you had a clearinghouse "politics thread" for a reason.

[Buster's Uncle]

This is all weak, and not worth my time.  Not the kind of politics OJ turned into, and thanks for burying my original point.

[Buster's Uncle]

To the extent the observations in the attached represent the actual case, and those assertions seem credible and extremely in line with what I saw on TV and what inarguably happened, a LOT of public servants, high and low, betrayed the public trust of their positions.

What was intentional crimes and what was unconscious bias halfassery, I cannot yet say, but I remain interested in what the investigations in this line turns up.

[it embiggens]

[Buster's Uncle]

If this is what it sounds like, that is serious conspiracy to/active participation in a cluster of related top-level felonies.

[bvanevery]

This is all weak, and not worth my time.  Not the kind of politics OJ turned into, and thanks for burying my original point.

I'll be unsubscribing to this thread now.

[Buster's Uncle]

I'll be banning you 24 hours and doing so every time you post your petulant unsubscribe announcements.  Grow up.

[Unorthodox]

Also saw another video of someone with a bullhorn who CLEARLY knew where they were going directing the mob which doors to break down and where to go. 

Basically, it's looking more like an organized, planned attack with the crowd as cover to me. 

[Unorthodox]

I'll be banning you 24 hours and doing so every time you post your petulant unsubscribe announcements.  Grow up.

BU, love you, but I think you're going too far here/are a little to close to this. 

[Buster's Uncle]

More going on than shows in here, including that that was also for the last ten times he did the same thing - this time, uniquely, before I said anything in my official capacity, because he was only being rude to me.  There has been a recent warning.

[ninja'd]

See also the Pressley thing a few posts upstream, and a whole range of rumors from solid journalists that sound credible but lack named sources and much detail so far.  Appears that we'll know a lot more in coming months.

[E_T]

Also saw another video of someone with a bullhorn who CLEARLY knew where they were going directing the mob which doors to break down and where to go. 

Basically, it's looking more like an organized, planned attack with the crowd as cover to me.

They have had some sensitive materials go missing during the riot.  I would have also not put it past a few people to have planted a few high tech surveillance devices in various places, esp in some of the hearing rooms, to listen in to closed door committee meetings.  And all they have to do it be quiescent until getting an outside signal to turn on so that they might not even show up in some standard device removal sweeps.