Author Topic: SMAX - The Will to Power - mod  (Read 160358 times)

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Re: SMAX - The Will to Power - mod
« Reply #285 on: May 23, 2020, 05:54:28 PM »
An example: level 1 Conquer techs Applied Physics and Industrial Base are prerequisites for level 3 techs Industrial Economics and Field Modulation, respectively. That would immedialy make much more sense if you swich them around.

Good suggestion. Let me try it.

Perfect. It worked. Meaning nothing else is broken. Will be in version 56.

Offline Hagen0

Re: SMAX - The Will to Power - mod
« Reply #286 on: May 23, 2020, 05:55:25 PM »
I already made a suggestion. I will think on it some more. Do you value the system where each technology has one prerequisite from the previous tier and one prerequisite from the tier before that?

What do you say about the weapon armor balance? Weapons should be a bit ahead of armor, not as much as in vanilla maybe.

Re: SMAX - The Will to Power - mod
« Reply #287 on: May 23, 2020, 06:11:16 PM »
That being said I think FM > Planned > Green in your set.

That could be. However, there is no use to compare them in absolute value. The question is: how often did you prefer FM to Planned? If the answer is 95% of the cases then Planned sure need some review. If it's like 50%, 30%, and 20% for them, correspondingly, then it is fine.

It's hard for me to compare my version of knowledge because Wealth is much more powerful, it had to be boosted even more.

Sorry. This eluded me. What do you mean?

The biggest flaw I had right now was that weapons overtake armor in the midgame. 13-3 units are rather common. Then there's kind of a weapons stagnation as armor goes up to 8. The silksteel-photon-probability armors probably need some side economic benefits. Mag tubes are nice but the AI is probably right Drop is better a lot of the time

I take you are talking about vanilla here? Because I think I worked on evening it out specifically.

Re: SMAX - The Will to Power - mod
« Reply #288 on: May 23, 2020, 06:19:00 PM »
I found the tech tree in it's current form jarring flavourwise. There is a progression of armor and weapons techs but otherwise prerequisites that make some intuitive sense are the exception. Most prerequisites appear completely random.

That is correct. Weapon and armor are linked explicitly. I've also linked alien/psi/native related techs whenever I could. Everything else is just random. Meaning I didn't bother. The problem being that adjusting feature timing requires moving tech up and down the tree. So that these arbitrary links keeps breaking. It would be a nightmare to support them. However, now, when most feature timings are more or less settled, we can try to add some lore in it.

On another note, armor should not be as strong as weapons of the same tech tree depths. You have better modifiers for defense. Having unkillable units can be extremely unfun.

These defense modifiers were calculated in assumption equal weapon and armor strength. When you ask to weaken armor you are asking for tilting balance in favor of attack. There was a huge discussion on a topic. Feel free to review it. You are welcome to renew it if you think you have some new arguments. I will be glad to listen. However, keep in mind that there were so many arguing and it is more or less settled for this mod now. So you need really strong and thought through new arguments to shake it.
😛

Re: SMAX - The Will to Power - mod
« Reply #289 on: May 23, 2020, 06:36:45 PM »
I think the starting point would be to come up with themes, techs that are similar to one another. The Centauri techs are probably the most obvious. Those had a progression that made sense to me. Although there were maybe some flaws.

Some themes might be
Terraforming
Weapons/Armor
Genetics/Pop Growth
Economics
Research

One thing to note is that about half the tree is military techs. So military could be subdivided. Movement, Weapons, Armor, and Abilities perhaps.

Excellent suggestion. It is actually somehow done in vanilla by coloring them and linking similar techs. We can sure do the same maybe with refined approach. They also should be color subsets to not cross color boundaries. Something like that.

Red
Weapon and conventional attack favoring features
Armor and conventional defense favoring features
Chassis (some of them)
Yellow
Infrastructure and minerals
Drones
Blue
Research
(no need for finer granularity - there are not much of research features at all)
Green
Native warfare units and related features (including native related attack and defense abilities)
Terraforming
Growth
Exploration (foil chassis)

Re: SMAX - The Will to Power - mod
« Reply #290 on: May 23, 2020, 06:44:27 PM »
Yeah it feels like there's way too many conquer techs.. but i don't know if that affects anything. Maybe factions with conquer focus have it harder to get non-conquer techs.

Yes. There are 27 out of 85 (32%) of them in WtP.
No. it doesn't affect anything. The technology color is just the one value with the highest priority. Industrial Base
 is 3222 so it becomes conquer. However, it is equally good for everything else too.

My first impression was there's too many weapons/armors but i got used to it quickly. One doesn't have to build latest variant, especially not the armor. Equality means its hard to conquer anything - I played Miriam and overrun Deirdre with 10 bases with Particle, Missile and Chaos weapons - all early. I didn't play Yang, Santiago or usurper Aliens i presume they can go to war early. Other factions look to me to be better at builder style. Once you go builder style it seems to me its hard to conquer anything before Fusion laser (10) or Shard Weaponry (13). Worms are no solution also because its hard to amass them. This is ok in general - different playstyle and its fun to play in lategame or endgame.

Agree. I have the same impression too. It doesn't matter whether you play vanilla or any other mod. 20 weapon/armor components is just too much for 350 turn game. You essentially need to discover, design, prototype, and then upgrade entire army every 15 turns. That is impossible unless you play to do just that. 😂

I always proposed to decrease number of weapons from 12 to 8 at least. Didn't do it, though, as I was scared people start complaining immediately. This time for lacking of their preferred weapon. 🙄

About SE choices - i must admit i am surprised by your logic, i rated 30% science + 1 EFF highly  and Free Market lower partly because it goes into negative planet. So one can't use fungus - power of all these vary with time tho. I'll go experiment a bit and revisit my choices. Maybe i am taking some wrong things for granted. Gonna also see if i can crunch some numbers in few of my saves and see how it turns out in real game.

Please be patient with this. Effect are so variate and circumstantial that nobody can just point a finger and say what is better and by how much exactly.
Even if you feel like it there are still two problems with it. First, you may be just wrong. Happens to everybody including me. I had to review my SE effect values few times along the road. Second, how to you even prove your judgement to others? I mean not the kind of reasoning with random wording to defend your point of view but the one that other people will accept. I tried to build a hard mathematical base under that and even posted some article on the net but nobody cares.
It takes some intellectual discipline and patience for such dialog. 😕

For now I suggest we don't dive into it but just vote. Propose some change and if others support it - I'll just introduce it. It is not such a big deal anyway.

ps. i reverted to v.54 but i'll see to reproduce that road movement bug

Is there something else in 55 that breaks you game play besides it? Send me your 55 problem save in PM.

Re: SMAX - The Will to Power - mod
« Reply #291 on: May 23, 2020, 06:59:58 PM »
Having the the Conquer techs interleaved with builder techs would be fine for me. But they should make just a tad more sense. A fig leaf like Industrial Automation having Silksteel Alloys as a prerequisite would be OK already. Most of the current ones do not even make as much sense as that.

They had to. You cannot make both prerequisites from the same group. You need to cross pollinate. When we are talking about themes these are just single chain of similar techs. Each one of them takes some random prerequisite as well.

+2 Eco is substantially superior to having high effiency and research.

Friend, I understand you feel this way. Can you prove it? Not to yourself but to others? I am not saying your understanding is incorrect but without proof the dialog is impossible.

Just propose the change instead and we'll vote.

Offline Hagen0

Re: SMAX - The Will to Power - mod
« Reply #292 on: May 23, 2020, 07:12:32 PM »
Having the the Conquer techs interleaved with builder techs would be fine for me. But they should make just a tad more sense. A fig leaf like Industrial Automation having Silksteel Alloys as a prerequisite would be OK already. Most of the current ones do not even make as much sense as that.

They had to. You cannot make both prerequisites from the same group. You need to cross pollinate. When we are talking about themes these are just single chain of similar techs. Each one of them takes some random prerequisite as well.

What do you mean by same group? Is this a requirement in the game or a rule you set for the mod? How important is the position of a tech in the tech tree (type of prerequisites, type of following techs) vs level of that tech for you?

+2 Eco is substantially superior to having high effiency and research.

Friend, I understand you feel this way. Can you prove it? Not to yourself but to others? I am not saying your understanding is incorrect but without proof the dialog is impossible.

Just propose the change instead and we'll vote.


I was just discussing SE effects with lolada. I didn't propose or intend to propose a change.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 07:33:59 PM by Hagen0 »

Re: SMAX - The Will to Power - mod
« Reply #293 on: May 23, 2020, 07:33:29 PM »
I already made a suggestion. I will think on it some more.


Do you refer to this?
http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=21359.msg125498#msg125498

Sorry, I didn't get what model you want to change and how.

Do you value the system where each technology has one prerequisite from the previous tier and one prerequisite from the tier before that?


Yes. That is exactly how my whole tree is built. Such consistency makes it easy to understand the tech placement in a tree. With 14 levels you get level 7 somewhere mid game. Or in other words if you researched most of the level 7 techs than you are past mid point. 😀

Vanilla is not like that. It is complete mess where higher level tech may be easier to reach than some lower one in some cases.

What do you say about the weapon armor balance? Weapons should be a bit ahead of armor, not as much as in vanilla maybe.


Why?

Re: SMAX - The Will to Power - mod
« Reply #294 on: May 23, 2020, 07:40:46 PM »
What do you mean by same group? Is this a requirement in the game or a rule you set for the mod? How important is the position of a tech in the tech tree (type of prerequisites, type of following techs) vs level of that tech for you?

Neither. Me personally I don't care. However, others propose linking similar technologies. I am just pointing out that even then you cannot both prerequisites to be from similar group otherwise this group will not connect to anything outside it. So with best efforts one still ends up with some meaningless prerequisites here and there. There is no escape of it.

I was just discussing SE effects with lolada. I didn't propose or intend to propose a change.

Oh. Sorry. Never mind then. Somehow I compelled to answer each and every post here. 🙄

Offline lolada

Re: SMAX - The Will to Power - mod
« Reply #295 on: May 23, 2020, 07:46:29 PM »
Here movement bug in v.55. - you can move that infantry 9 tiles in gaia start thanks to river.

Offline Hagen0

Re: SMAX - The Will to Power - mod
« Reply #296 on: May 23, 2020, 07:47:00 PM »
I already made a suggestion. I will think on it some more.


Do you refer to this?
http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=21359.msg125498#msg125498

Sorry, I didn't get what model you want to change and how.


No, I meant the Applied Physics + Industrial Base switch.

What do you say about the weapon armor balance? Weapons should be a bit ahead of armor, not as much as in vanilla maybe.


Why?



Disregard this for the moment. I don't really have enough experience to say for sure. (Purely from calculation there seems to be no reasonable way to get a entreched defender out of a fungus field near your base or out of a base with perimeter defense. As I understand it, the combat power of units weakens when they get damaged. But I'd guess a defender behind a perimeter defense can easily kill several attackers in a row which means that combat becomes a fairly static affair.)

Re: SMAX - The Will to Power - mod
« Reply #297 on: May 23, 2020, 08:43:40 PM »
No, I meant the Applied Physics + Industrial Base switch.

Ah. This is in 56 already.

No, I meant the Applied Physics + Industrial Base switch.

What do you say about the weapon armor balance? Weapons should be a bit ahead of armor, not as much as in vanilla maybe.

Why?


Disregard this for the moment. I don't really have enough experience to say for sure. (Purely from calculation there seems to be no reasonable way to get a entreched defender out of a fungus field near your base or out of a base with perimeter defense. As I understand it, the combat power of units weakens when they get damaged. But I'd guess a defender behind a perimeter defense can easily kill several attackers in a row which means that combat becomes a fairly static affair.)

From which calculation? I'd like to know it too! 😀

How the defender is entrenched if there are no bunkers anymore? Is it just staying on fungus? If so then it is about 2.25 times stronger than attacker with equal weapon strength. So? It'll take one artillery and one attacker. No casualties.
In base with PD it is about 3 times stronger than equal equipped attackers. This is little bit more challenging. One artillery to wear it down to 1.5 and then two attackers, one dies. So 1:1 losses. Not bad for defended base attack.

Or course, smart opponent won't let you just bombard the city and approach it without counterattacks. So attacker would probably lose 2-3 times more units capturing the base. This is the prize price. Do you find it too high?
From my experience when it is lower than 2 conquest becomes a single most lucrative enterprise which bored me in vanilla. Therefore, this mod. In WtP it is not the single successful strategy.

Yes, it means there are some stalemate zone when neither side is powerful enough to crush neighbor. And? Why is this so exceptionally bad? Do you prefer ever advancing front line? Vanilla had it and game effectively ended in 100-150 turns, every time. Unless human player hold it off on purpose. That is kind of waste of undiscovered techs in my opinion. I like to try them and use them and feel how they change game play, you know. Therefore, this mod.

I can assure you. Three times overpowering happens very often from game start and more and more as it develops. Think about that. The mere alliance of three factions against one in mid game and faction starts loosing bases. You don't even need that. Any fluctuation in unit concentration, recent conflict somewhere and faction cannot transport them to the new front line quickly enough and suffers consequences. Happens every time.

From the feeling of it. In vanilla someone always captures bases in conflict. In WtP it happens like 50% of the time which is pretty acceptable. There are no trench wars as other tries to picture it. Play on scenario editor and observe AI.

Re: SMAX - The Will to Power - mod
« Reply #298 on: May 23, 2020, 08:52:04 PM »
Here movement bug in v.55. - you can move that infantry 9 tiles in gaia start thanks to river.

Fixed in 56. Forgot about rivers. 🙄

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Re: SMAX - The Will to Power - mod
« Reply #299 on: May 23, 2020, 08:55:51 PM »
Let me repeat in hundredth time. There are so many different technology flavors that is impossible to make all prerequisites sensible.

I think I managed it in my latest mod version 1.43 tech shuffle.  I definitely had some trouble in the vicinity of Self-Aware Machines, but I eventually found a solution.  There are basically 2 kinds of continuity: research continuity and narrative continuity.  I prefer research continuity, the respecting of Explore Discover Build Conquer categories.  I don't like it when I've come up with only a narrative continuity, and the research categories don't basically make any sense one after the other.

Quote
Besides it almost never sensible for one color to be dependent on other color.

This is false.  Techs can be legitimately cross-listed in multiple categories.  This requires a clear and consistent criteria for what different color categories represent.  For instance in my mod, Explore green color represents happiness, growth, exploration, and indigenous life techs.  This is quite overloaded, but it's not my fault.  It's what the original game implemented.  The only controversial change is putting happiness in with Explore.  I think it's an obvious consequence of growth, you can't grow if you don't have people happy.  I decided that Build is going to be about minerals and energy, wealth only.  You can be happy and poor.  You can be rich and miserable.

Over time, I decided that strict separation between Explore and Build is not generally valid.  For instance if you have more workers, you're always going to make more money or minerals.  Yet I don't want every research category to mean or imply every other research category.  So I adopted a "half as much influence" doctrine.  For instance my Social Psych gives the Recreation Commons.  I assign it growth=4 because it's making people happy.  I assign it wealth=2 because having more happy workers does make one more money or minerals.  And because I want happiness facilities to be primarily in Explore, not Build.

Quote
Yet you have to do it.

Generally speaking that's not true.  However, I do make abrupt "cliff" transitions when I actually don't want it to be easy to get from one tech to the next.  It is possible to delay and semi-hide techs from being researched that way.  I used to treat fusion reactors and genetic warfare that way.  Lately, I'm not sure what's happening.  I've had to change the categorical continuities around for other reasons.

Quote
Were you able to quickly memorize whole tree?

Some orderings and transitions make it easier or harder to remember than others.

Quote
I never was and it never bothered me.

That doesn't speak to the point of whether or not it bothers others.  Being aware of one's own biases, is important when designing.  It's not essential that you take other people's point of view into account, but failure to do so, can affect adoption rates.

For instance, the author of Dwarf Fortress is known to be autistic.  He likes the ASCII text, labyrinthine menus, and extensive keyboard chord sequences to do things just fine.  Although the game has had design influence, and has some notoriety, and even a sustainable business model, it's clearly not as popular as it could have been.  This is because of the author's blind spots about what doesn't bother him, vs. what does actually bother a lot of other people.  And apparently, RimWorld has subsequently become the better title?  I haven't really played either TBH.

"There's no issue" is a very different argument from "there's an issue, but I don't want to work on that, because I think it's too expensive for me to do."

Quote
Were you able to memorize Civ 1/2 tech tree even if it was supposedly reflecting a real technological progress?

Yes.  But it took time, perhaps measured over a timespan of like 3 months of seriously incessant full time play.  I had just quit my job...

Quote
Was everything sensible to you then?

Pretty much.  The tree was grounded in when historical inventions actually appeared, more or less.

Quote
How the hell you can develop Medicine from Trade + Philosophy? 😲

This was one of the weak spots, as it didn't respect any kind of indigenous practices of "medicine".  Everyone's had some kind of medicine, and some of it worked better for some things than Western medicine.

Quote
How the hell Space Flight was possible without Plastics in Civ 1? Oh well.

Not sure I understand why you think plastics are essential to space flight.  But this is going sideways into a discussion of our knowledge of real tech history.  SMAC of course isn't real tech history.

Quote
For one we can just darn rename them all and repaint tech tree from scratch!

I rarely do this to techs, but I have done this in a few instances.

For instance, I changed "Frictionless Surfaces" to "Single-Sided Surfaces" at one point, because I was trying to figure out a valid fiction for a Clean Reactor.  I was moving things around in the tech tree and trying to repurpose the techs, without violating the quotes and voice acting that were inherently stuck with the tech.  I decided that these lines were vague enough that they could be about something other than friction, this idea of "hiding a surface from itself".  That a Clean Reactor could be some kind of conceptual Mobius Strip.  It held up reasonably well at the time.

Well, my tech tree changed over time.   :D  The Clean Reactor went elsewhere.  I decided the Single-Sided Surface was going to be my hand wavy explanation for how the 3-Pulse armor works.  It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but hey, it's tech!  The real reason I kept it, is because I'd put my "personal stamp of style" into the game.  I didn't feel like taking it out.  It's one of the ways you can tell I modded this.

I have Phasers instead of Fusion Lasers.  Having Fusion as a name for both a weapon and a reactor is damn confusing for automatic unit names, so I abolished it.  It is obviously a nod to Star Trek.

I have Chronoton Guns instead of Quantum Lasers.  Again, having a weapon and a reactor sharing a name is confusing.  This is a nod to a Star Trek Voyager episode about "temporal incursions".  The weapon is given by Temporal Mechanics.  The next tech gives Graviton Guns, so there's a phonetic continuity.

Most recently, I have renamed "Orbital Spaceflight" to "Orbital Construction".  Also "Advanced Spaceflight" is now "Orbital Supremacy".  They're also both much later in the tech tree.  This is to better explain what a Sky Hydroponics Lab is about.  It's required to be the 1st available satellite if you want the satellite UI to work properly.  Planet Busters and the missile chassis are not required to have that UI work, so AFAIAC now, those missiles no longer have anything to do with space flight.  We can launch terrestrial missiles just fine without going into space.  Such things are generally called cruise missiles.  Indeed, they got called that in later Civ games.  Orbital Supremacy gets my Orbital Defense Pods and Geosynchronous Survey Pods.  The choice of name is a nod to the old board game [Supremacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supremacy_(board_game)).  It is also something that militaries actually try to achieve, i.e. Air Parity, Air Superiority, Air Supremacy.

The challenge in all of this, is to try to utilize and respect the quotes, narratives, and world building that are already in place.

Sometimes I've welded a tech and a Secret Project together, because the right character was talking about stuff.  For instance, Chairman Yang yabbering on and on about how to overcome yin yang dualism.  He does it for Monopole Magnets.  I decided that's a good place to weld the Ascetic Virtues.  It's not a perfect tech relationship, but it's a good narrative relationship.  I happened to want those things to come at about the same time, in the beginning of the midgame at my Tier 3.  They were floating around each other, and they helped me solve some narrative and tech fitting problems at the time.  I don't plan to take them apart again.

Quote
As it doesn't affect game play I don't pay attention to it much. You are welcome to team up with me on it. I hear a lot of critics on this specifically but nobody volunteered yet.
😉

Well as you know, I'm not teaming up with anyone to solve such problems.  I do my own mod to toot my own horn as a game designer.   Being deft at such rearrangements, respecting the previous quality of SMAC as a narrative work, is part of what I do well as a designer.  I have my own specific tech tree results.  I merely suggest looking at what I did in my tree, when contemplating such problems.  Because frankly, I've done a better job of it, by far, than anyone else's work that I'm aware of.  If someone did some bangup job of this sort of thing back in the stone ages of SMAC modding, well their work hasn't survived in anyone's mind in the present day.  I suspect that I'm the only person who has put 2+ years into these kinds of "narrative and technical and balance" rearrangements.

Direct lifting of my tech tree, requires attribution per my CC-BY-NC license.  Inspiration of course requires nothing.  I hope to at least inspire.

 

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