SMAX - The Will to Power - mod

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

I really really don't like Power.. 2 Supp, 2 Mor, 1 Probe, -2 Industry everything is ruined by industry.. 1 Supp, 2 Mor, 1 probe, -1 Industry; .. or +2 Supp, +2 Mor, -1 Ind..: or something like that would be much more interesting.. What's the point in picking it when it makes producing everything so hard.. i'd rather have more units.

SUPPORT is 2-3 times better than INDUSTRY at the very beginning. Each level of SUPPORT saves you 1 mineral. Whereas each level of INDUSTRY saves you 10% of ... 2-4 minerals early bases produce, which is ... 0.2-0.4 minerals. Figure it out yourself. SUPPORT declines quickly as average production grows but it stays on par with INDUSTRY until bases reach 10 minerals production in about early mid game. If you managed to grab faction with bonus SUPPORT or if you crank it up by some other means (SE, project) you will have an extreme boost in first 100 turns. That is big impact. However, I can go with 1 Supp, 2 Mor, 1 probe, -1 Industry; Should be no biggie.

[Hagen0]

It's true I haven't been in a late game situation yet. However, then you also have stuff like Cybernetic and Eudamonia. Moreover, there is Democracy for effiency. There is also the option of going specialist-heavy.

As lolada pointed out, the planet going to hell in a handbasket is another situation where Green is good.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

EFFIC is more of a nice to have IMO. Unless you're playing on very large maps then it gets more valuable

It's only 3 less drones in your empire per 2 EFFIC on a normal map. On a huge map, about 5 less drones.

It has fairly quick diminishing returns, as it's a 1/x function. Creche gives +2 getting you over the worst part of the curve.

However being at negative EFFIC is crippling for the same reason, how the function curves.

EFFIC means less in the late game because specialists contribute directly to econ/labs/psych

Overall the first +2 EFFIC is good to have but it's nothing compared to +2 ECON or +2 GROWTH

Yes, its effect depends on empire size and, therefore, map size. It's difficult to balance all maps across. And yes, it is diminishing return. -4 EFFICIENCY is just appalling economy, -3 is about 10 times better than that but +4 is just 5-10% better than +3.

Agree on that. I may give it less value and reduce INDUSTRY penalty for Green.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

It's true I haven't been in a late game situation yet. However, then you also have stuff like Cybernetic and Eudamonia. Moreover, there is Democracy for effiency. There is also the option of going specialist-heavy.

As lolada pointed out, the planet going to hell in a handbasket is another situation where Green is good.

Reducing Green INDUSTRY penalty in next version.

[Hagen0]

I really really don't like Power.. 2 Supp, 2 Mor, 1 Probe, -2 Industry everything is ruined by industry.. 1 Supp, 2 Mor, 1 probe, -1 Industry; .. or +2 Supp, +2 Mor, -1 Ind..: or something like that would be much more interesting.. What's the point in picking it when it makes producing everything so hard.. i'd rather have more units.

SUPPORT is 2-3 times better than INDUSTRY at the very beginning. Each level of SUPPORT saves you 1 mineral. Whereas each level of INDUSTRY saves you 10% of ... 2-4 minerals early bases produce, which is ... 0.2-0.4 minerals. Figure it out yourself. SUPPORT declines quickly as average production grows but it stays on par with INDUSTRY until bases reach 10 minerals production in about early mid game. If you managed to grab faction with bonus SUPPORT or if you crank it up by some other means (SE, project) you will have an extreme boost in first 100 turns. That is big impact. However, I can go with 1 Supp, 2 Mor, 1 probe, -1 Industry; Should be no biggie.

It doesn't quite work like that. Industry reduces the cost in a linear fashion. +1 industry is close to 10% more production but +2 industry is already +25% production, 3 industry is a 42% production increase and after that it gets crazy.

More importantly perhaps, early game you can make do with two free units if you don't build many scout patrols. Two formers, or a former and a scout patrol per base is OK. Later on support matter more but you mineral output should be higher then too.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

That's right but still SUPPORT is better than INDUSTRY for very small bases.
Best +3 SUPPORT frees you 4 minerals. Whereas, best +5 INDUSTRY doubles your 2-4 mineral production (= 2-4 extra) which is barely comparable to SUPPORT benefit. So it is better. Even if INDUSTRY bonus grows like crazy. That just means SUPPORT is even more crazy bonus.

[lolada]

Green
Its really harsh i support that -1 industry change.

Btw PLANET rating - its really bad in the mod to have negative rating due to fungus. And positive is ok.. its great for combat to stack. Only free market has -2.

Power
The thing is its not used early... you don't want to war early in your mod - you can't really vs transcend AI - its way better to defend and develop. Miriam can - but you don't need Power.. and Power is not really available that early. So you want to use power later when you are ready to fight and infrastructure is up.. but then -2 industry really hurts.. I will easily pick Fundamentalism over it, thought control is also better. You also want to build up infrastructure in 1/2 bases and it hurts.

+2 SUPP +2 MOR -1 IND -1 ECO  // +2 SUPP +2 MOR -1 IND -1 GRO

This could be interesting for power push, its not hard to pick.. its possible to tank ECO and GROWTH
Thought control differs now more from Power => it has +2 Probe thats important and -3 support.. that matters. It may be hard to pick if you have low support.

ps. Support is good but i don't want to build units for quite some time.. 1 unit 1 former works well for lots of time. Then if i have +SUPP more and build up i really don't want to switch back and tank minerals. One must/should stick to it for quite some time. Mod is builder oriented, not war oriented.

[Hagen0]

+2 SUPP +2 MOR  -1 ECO -1 GRO would be my pick, maybe

One former per base is not enough but you can support two in some. Terraforming costs are really high compared to the base game. (Or rather with the mod it is worthwhile to actually use the expensive early options. Mine + Road on a rocky tile is 12 turns, Farm + Solar is 10 turns and neither of those spreads by itself.)

[bvanevery]

and after some time armor doesn't make it more expensive

I think in my mod, that's never ever true.  My Infantry Speeder Hovertank chasses are on a 2 3 4 cost progression, so it is never possible to get a cheap unarmored powerful weapon unit.  You pay through the nose for your weapons, if they're good weapons.  Armor pretty much follows the same cost regimen.  Getting both armor and weapon at the same time is expensive.  Only ships seem to have reduced armor costs, which makes some hand wavy sense as they float in the water.

- base builds it in same number of turns anyway.

To date I haven't been building big minerals bases.  Too scared of floods.  And my units cost. TANSTAAFL in my mod.

Its useful when arty gets attacked - it happens sometimes.. unarmored arty is very vulnerable to needlejets for example.

Wonder how Air Superiority artillery holds up?  It's very useful on offense, against stacks of Locusts.  Haven't had much call for it on defense.  I have build 3-Res Trance Artillery to deal with Locusts attacking.  Not sure how it performed.  Locusts were finally thinning out, round about when I designed it.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

ECONOMY and GROWTH are very strong effect by themselves. They are stronger than INDUSTRY. All of the below is really worse than original IMHO.

+2 SUPP +2 MOR -1 ECO -1 GRO
+2 SUPP +2 MOR -1 IND -1 ECO
+2 SUPP +2 MOR -1 IND -1 GRO

If you want to strengthen it significantly then I would just decrease INDUSTRY penalty. That's it. It is also makes sense to keep PROBE as it is only war oriented SE.

+2 SUPP +2 MOR +1 PRO -1 IND

[Hagen0]

I think Power is decent with your last proposal.

The reason I was suggesting other downsides is that unlike -IND, -ECO and -GRO do not directly hinder the war effort.

[Nexii]

Yea I've usually put -ECON or -GROWTH with Power. -EFFIC can work too but the AI can do dumb things with that.

My most recent version for Power is +2 SUP +1 MOR -2 ECO

[lolada]

I find -1 ECO no problem unless you are at 2 already.. -1 energy per base is not bad. Growth as well -1 is not bad => presumably you go to war once you established your bases so growth is anyway stopped by drones. I really don't like -1 EFF AI ruins itself with stacking minus eff.

+2 SUPP +2 MOR +1 PRO -1 IND

This could be good.. I would definitely like to keep +2 Morale and i hate -2 Industry.. Probe can be gotten from other sources as well so I didn't mind losing it if Power proves strong. Power has another issue its coupled vs Wealth (great in peace-time) and Knowledge (3! RESEARCH 1 EFFICIENCY -1 ECO -2 PROBE.. great always.. Probes are weakness but that can be dealt with.. and ECO is often no big deal.

I think Knowledge is too good. Having EFF and RESEARCH in same slot and 4 points of its - its too good - especially with this downside. +2 Res +1 EFF is more sane. When picking Power one basically has to give up +3 Res +1 Eff or that nice Eco from Wealth and thats really hard to do.


Green is like Power for planet factions.. you gave it -3 growth -2 industry and i really didn't want to pick it for a long time ^^. Basically when i grew bases to 7+ and had enough production.. then i don't mind them not growing much more. Still Industry penalty made everything build longer and i went in and Picked Fundamentalism (+1 Ind) to counter it.. morale and probe help in right direction there.
Once you have good +Planet cheap Spore Launcher is better defense than any armored defender - it even cancels bombardments. And worms are better attackers eventually especially through Perimeter Defenses - so Green becomes viable pick. AI use both artillery and some empath attackers - so Spore Launchers are not all in one solution. I don't see myself picking Green unless I would go very heavy on war with native life.

[lolada]

This is with +4 Eco -1 Planet. I got lucky and spawned near Manifold Nexus so i have that +1 Planet source. Fungus yields would be worse with Free Market.. but even now its good idea to remove them all. Some other bases have 8+ at base tile.


It looks interesting to place tactical Condensers (there's no point spamming them too much they don't produce on its own tile as much food) to paint everything green and then insert Echelon Mirrors to boost all those tiles around. Thats in hilly terrain. Forests on flat terrain should eventually be better. I'll see if i can terraform nicely.. Some Aquifers on the way as well.

[Hagen0]

-1 Eco on Knowledge makes it borderline unusable until future societies. Of course, Morgan can still use it.