SMACX Thinker Mod

[lolada]

Sure - just noting an interesting way to nerf copters. Obvious nerf would be to limit them to 2-3 attacks max (but i don't know if thats possible - some might hate that change actually) or to give them something gamey like -50% base attack. That would reduce their usefulness, but they could kill tons of units in the field.. so its half-measure.
This could be then exposed so modders can change it for example.
This logic works well for other units - for example worms are cool, but only have 1 attack per turn forever. Infantry has that base attack bonus and 1 attack per turn (there's that grav ability that gives them double movement..) and rovers attack twice and have bonus in open.
Bvanevery said he removed them completely from his mod due to how unbalanced he finds them - and i agree they are totally op in vanilla compared to other units.

[dino]

Air units don't require any other nerf than combat rules from WtP.

In vanilla attacker almost always win without looses in the open, combined with collateral few mobile units can wipe multiple SoD.
No collateral and increased armors slightly and all air units turns into very mobile, but economically inefficient combatants.

Same with magnet tubes, once defending in a base with perimeter is slightly in favor of defender instead of 1:1 like in vanilla and surviving attacker units need few turns break to repair, it's impossible to snowball, if anythig tubes should allow defender quickly concentrate forces in the point of attack and retake lost bases, so an option to make AI build them again should be made available.

Disabled by default, but available as an option, WtP features below are must have for this mod going forward imo:
1) Adjustable healing rates.
2) Adjustable collateral.
3) Adjustable perimeter and tachyon bonus.
4) Adjustable reactor impact on cost and HPs

Other combat features from WtP wouldn't hurt as an option, but are not essential.

I'd also love to see:
1) Coastall bases expanding borders into sea like sea bases.
2) Option to disable 50% condenser bonus.

***

Back on topic of AI improvement.

AIs loose it's edge mid to late game since it leave freshly established bases too much on their own:
1) It could build some additional crawlers, formers and defenders in established bases and rehome them to the new ones.
2) It could concentrate on hurrying essential infrastructure in new bases more.
AI could also get a cheat to hurry without penalty before first row is filled, since player can partially rush first row and then finish the next turn, would help with emergency hurryig defenders.

[Tayta Malikai]

> Did the AI still had vendetta status with other factions? Otherwise I can't see what would be the issue here.

Grey previously developed a vendetta with White (I'm not really sure why, though; they weren't near each other, both were my pact partners, and have no SE differences until Future Society. A stronger faction opportunistically declaring war on a weaker one?), but I had them call it off before I started gifting bases. It could be that whatever threat calculation the AI uses still considers this to be dangerous, despite having a truce (and later treaty).

I also wonder whether vendetta status actually gets cleared if the other faction gets eliminated. Specifically: Orange eliminated Grey, I used a probe to liberate Grey (who still had vendetta with Orange), then I eliminated Orange. But I think this doesn't actually remove the vendetta status between Orange and Grey. I saw a similar occurrence in a previous game where I eliminated a faction, then that faction got liberated, and still had vendetta with me upon meeting again. This might mean that the AI was never actually "at peace" to begin with.

Tangentially: if you commit atrocities against Faction A, then Faction A gets eliminated by Faction B, then you use a probe to liberate Faction A from B's HQ, they will still hate you forever. Can't exploit the game that way, alas.

RE: combat balance, I agree that I wouldn't want to see major changes enabled by default in Thinker. Just any options to tweak things around would be good. I see an option to tweak collateral damage has already been added to the repo, good stuff.

I think another big problem with copters is that because attacking doesn't end their turn, they can always return to safety after attacking - and even with a lower movement range, if they are used to support an assault, they can make their attack and then safely garrison inside the target base once it's captured. Conversely, jets (and gravships) are left exposed after their attack, so being too reckless with their use gets them shot down - and jets with decent weapons are pricey.

Of course, the real way to balance them is for my unarmoured rovers to get mowed down by the AI's own copters. Alas, while they build them, the AI seems unaware of their full power.

[Induktio]

New develop build 20200521 is now out in the downloads. The changes relative to the last release are listed below - and there's a lot of stuff! This is also a preliminary list of changes for the next release. Unfortunately diplomacy features can't make it into this build because they require much more testing first. Same with the other stuff that has been discussed here.

(click to show/hide)

* Tech costs towards the late game are increased by around a half or more. Techs in the lower tiers will still cost roughly the same than before.
* AI prototype selection formula has been revamped to take into account more factors and to avoid selecting units that would take too long to produce.
* Adjust the AI logic whether to build conventional or PSI units. AI now takes into account if the faction has Worm Police ability.
* AI now attempts to design defending units equipped with the Trance ability.
* AI sometimes builds Tachyon Fields, Geosynchronous Survey Pods and Flechette Defense Systems.
* Add proper parsing for special scenario rules: No terraforming, No colony pods can be built and No secret projects can be built.
* Add better handling for cases where the global unit count is nearing the limit (2048) and make the AI build facilities instead. If no suitable facilities are available, AI will switch production to Stockpile Energy.
* Add meaningful error message windows if some of the startup checks for Thinker fail.

* Import the following patches from Will To Power mod: collateral_damage_value, disable_planetpearls, disable_aquatic_bonus_minerals. Each of them has also their own configuration option.
* New option: eco_damage_fix will equalize the eco damage between player and AI bases.

* Fix issue where the AI might build Voice of Planet even if the Transcendence victory condition was disabled.
* Fix issue where AI bases sometimes persist without any defenders. AI will now force switch production away from facilities if no valid defenders are present.
* Fix a bug where attacking other satellites didn't work in Orbital Attack View when smac_only was activated. Credits: Scient.
* Fix engine bug where a faction with enough energy credits would attempt to Corner Energy Market every turn. Now the AI properly only attempts it once and waits for the countdown to complete.

[Induktio]

> No collateral and increased armors slightly and all air units turns into very mobile, but economically inefficient combatants.

Actually in this version I disabled collateral damage by default. AI doesn't handle those situations very well so it should be very simple way to make them more competent.

> if anythig tubes should allow defender quickly concentrate forces in the point of attack and retake lost bases, so an option to make AI build them again should be made available.

But I would not make the AI just build magtubes nearly everywhere like it builds the roads. So it would need some kind of planning mechanism to only build them where they tactically support unit movement.

Also I've been thinking of another way of balancing the tech costs and it would be a really simple change. Right now SE Research effect feels overpowered when the player can stack bonuses up to 50% which makes research go at double speed. One unit of Research could be nerfed to only provide 5% bonus or similar. Also factions with research penalties would not be anymore so massively disadvantaged.

[Nexii]

+5 RESEARCH isn't double research rate btw, only +50% modifier.

However -5 RESEARCH is half research rate. RESEARCH is quite rough on the negative side.

[Induktio]

> +5 RESEARCH isn't double research rate btw, only +50% modifier.

Currently it's certainly implemented as a modifier where each point has an effect of 10 percentage points on the cost. So +5 Research cuts the cost in half, so the speed is doubled. But -5 Research would cause researching the same tech to take 50% longer because the cost is increased by that much.

So the fastest possible Research faction could proceed at the speed of three times the slowest possible faction. Unless there's some kind of a bug in the implementation, that's how it should go when revised_tech_cost is activated. F2 research menu should always show the actual cost after a new target has been selected. After that, the cost is locked until the tech is discovered or research is changed to something else.

[Nexii]

Ah so it got flipped so to speak. Yea that would make +5 RESEARCH very strong just like +5 INDUSTRY. Necessitates higher penalties on the SEs/factions that get it as a +

[Tayta Malikai]

Always great to see a new build coming out. Keep up the good work

RE: tech cost balance:

How often does one actually get to +5 RESEARCH, though? SE Knowledge gives +2, and science factions like University or Cyborgs get +2, and that's all you're going to see for most of the game. I maintain that raw energy input is the biggest culprit behind unstoppable tech runaways.

That said, it's probably a good change. Brings factions with different RESEARCH scores more in line with each other.

> But I would not make the AI just build magtubes nearly everywhere like it builds the roads. So it would need some kind of planning mechanism to only build them where they tactically support unit movement.

I'd say a good starting point here would be to have the AI just build magtubes on straight-line distances between cities. Being able to build units in one place and bring them to another would already be a big boost. It'd require constant checking to see which cities already have magtubes between them though, if no data is being stored in the save file.

[Induktio]

Though now that I'm rechecking these numbers, it looks like the current revised_tech_cost is bugged. Depending on how these costs get calculated in the game engine, the SE research factor might not have an effect like it's supposed to have according to the documentation. Have to look into it more closely later. Should be easily fixed though in the next version and it doesn't affect games in other ways than the research costs.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Something not right with Thinker AI former automation. See this former trying to build solar on mine while there are lot of unworked tiles around.

[lolada]

Necessitates higher penalties on the SEs/factions that get it as a +

I don't think this is the case in practical gameplay for AI - it looks like Zakharov/University is weakest faction in the Thinker. He always gets stomped once Probe teams come into play. Maybe if he get Hunter-Seeker that he has some chance to be the best, but I doubt it.

The best factions are industry ones usually - Hive and Drones and whoever starts at Monsoon jungle. Both of these factions have slower research, but from what i can observe always play better. RESEARCH is actually not that great stat once probe teams are in play. Especially if AI is using armored probes - what poor Zakharov researches through hard work others easily steal and trade away. Drones also kill him its just too strong a nerf for AI - I'd like to see that removed from him - bvanevery removed it in his mod i think.

One unit of Research could be nerfed to only provide 5% bonus or similar.

This might help a bit to nerf player - but AI won't really get better.

I wouldn't speak of RESEARCH isolated - it needs to be looked through factions and SE choices. +2 Research is not really good if its coupled with -2 Industry.. and it doesn't save Zakharov, nor it ruins Drones/Hive.

I think EFFICIENCY is more important attribute especially to AI. Late on + EFF is often better than +RESEARCH or +ECONOMY.

I'd say a good starting point here would be to have the AI just build magtubes on straight-line distances between cities.

This would be great to have.

Another thing that would be good to improve:

AI using 1 food tile (in ocean) or 1f/1e fungus for example instead of much better specialist. 1 food in general is bad idea to work as city will grow and starve.

[dino]

But I would not make the AI just build magtubes nearly everywhere like it builds the roads. So it would need some kind of planning mechanism to only build them where they tactically support unit movement.

Magtubes only to connect bases, roads, could be limited to rocky mines, connecting bases, and tiles surrounding bases.
AI could build roads and tubes toward enemy  territory, *if* enemy is weaker and AI is going to invade.

Also I've been thinking of another way of balancing the tech costs and it would be a really simple change. Right now SE Research effect feels overpowered when the player can stack bonuses up to 50% which makes research go at double speed. One unit of Research could be nerfed to only provide 5% bonus or similar. Also factions with research penalties would not be anymore so massively disadvantaged.

Given exponential growth of tech costs, I'm not sure smaller bonus would allow meaningful long term advantage.

[Induktio]

Now that I'm reconsidering it, modifying Research effect doesn't make sense if Industry effect remains the same. The latter is certainly stronger for the AIs and probably can't be modded easily, the production stuff is hardcoded in so many places.

I'm thinking if Magtube building gets implemented, the AI should only build them between bases and avoid any redundant connections (that's how a human would build them too). If they get built everywhere, it looks a little too ugly. But it's somewhat tricky to code this process right. And there's the diplomacy features to consider too.

[EmpathCrawler]

I just completed a game with 2/5 global warming in alphax and the sea rise was still overwhelming. Morgan and Lal, who had the Monsoon Jungle, burned up the planet real fast. Nobody proposed a solar shade and I never got there due to being crippled early on by a massive Spartan attack.



I did not, oops. Still set to 1/2.


Will the diplomacy improvements cover the AI being smarter about Supreme Leader elections? I think Lal called one election as soon as he could and he was only a few votes off from winning outright, like single digits short. I was his pact sister. Maybe he thought I'd vote for him? He then waited much longer than 10 years to try again.