SMACX Thinker Mod

[lolada]

- Just want to report that Drones are building tons of interceptors they are killing my air game lol. As long as AI has production and industry they spam units.

- I have one big issue with "advanced custom designes": AI can't really tell when thing is too expensive? For example they tend to build ton of armored cruiser probes - its a strong unit and quite a pain - but investing so much in them is kind of a waste. It would be much better if AI could mix both cheaper (unarmored for example, or foils) and more expensive units.
Can AI be learned to avoid building units that are for example > 12 turns? and build cheaper ones. Same for facilities, > 15 or 20 turns don't build. For example they build expensive rover colony pod when infantry one would be just fine.

Its interesting to see AI build some cheaper - non max tech units as well - as it really makes sense - for example to counter worms or probes. I would max design slots if possible, 64 is too restricting. Does it come with downside?

- Sea bases - AI does not protect them they stay empty for long time. That would be priority fix. I recall AI would insta change production in land bases from whatever to build to defender - if base loses the only defender. Sea bases do not do this.

[Tayta Malikai]

I am happy to report that I was defeated by the AI through a Progenitor Victory in 2281. It was a good game, and a learning experience for me.

Notably, the game was played with boreholes nerfed to 0-2-6, supply crawlers disabled, and no pop-booms available from Creches, which I understand are three of the main avenues for the AI to get ahead in Thinker. I think this might actually be a net buff for the AI, since the +30% multipliers it gets on Transcend let it far outproduce, and outtech, human players.

I noticed that the AI still has a bad habit of leaving bases empty sometimes, or only stationing rovers/hovertanks in some bases - although other bases had Isles and armoured defenders in them, which I was not equipped to deal with. While it didn't really make a difference in the end, it still makes one shake their head to see 14-size economic powerhouse bases totally undefended.

Though, there was an amusing occurrence at the start of the game, where this let me eliminate an AI in one turn by moving a rover into its empty HQ. Granted, this was on a Standard map; it'd be much less likely on a larger one.

The tech rate still rockets up into the stratosphere in late game. The AI was researching late-tier (10-12) techs in 1-2 turns (making 1500+ labs per turn) and had the whole tree finished by 2270 - and as an alien, he wasn't getting any commerce income. I heavily mismanaged my energy that game, but still had a tidy 3 turns for tier 6 tech with ~450 labs per turn - and if I switched to FM / Knowledge, 1 turn with 860 labs.

Here is what the victor's base looked like at the end of the game. He also had 10 of every satellite (except Geosynchronous Pods, which I'm sure the AI would find helpful on defense), a few PBs, and half of all the secret projects (i.e. all the good ones...).

[Induktio]

> I think this might actually be a net buff for the AI, since the +30% multipliers it gets on Transcend let it far outproduce, and outtech, human players.

This is an important point that I've been thinking about. There are many mods out there that claim to "balance" gameplay by delaying crawlers/boreholes/pop booming and so forth. But the thing is, the AI doesn't micromanage these elements together as efficiently as a human could. The AI doesn't understand the value of stacking all these bonuses in one base to create super science cities, for example.

So in the end it might produce a benefit for the human player to have these tools available that can be combined in a powerful way. Without them, the game becomes much more about raw growth/colonization speed. And good luck trying to match 6 other Thinker factions with 30% discounts in the early land grabbing phase.

> I noticed that the AI still has a bad habit of leaving bases empty sometimes, or only stationing rovers/hovertanks in some bases

Can you provide save games where this happens consistently? Does it happen more often in sea bases?

> The tech rate still rockets up into the stratosphere in late game.

Were you playing this with Thinker or The Will to Power tech cost formula? Those two are NOT the same btw. We might increase the late game costs if they are still too low.

> Its interesting to see AI build some cheaper - non max tech units as well - as it really makes sense - for example to counter worms or probes.

I think I'll incorporate some changes on this for the next develop build.

[EmpathCrawler]

Without them, the game becomes much more about raw growth/colonization speed. And good luck trying to match 6 other Thinker factions with 30% discounts in the early land grabbing phase.

Really good point. That's been my experience with your mod, too. If I get a sucky start and my neighbor is Yang or Miriam then my whole early game turns into an extended delaying action until I can get crawlers for my own survival!


I only play on standard sized maps and restart until I get a big continent on the middle setting so everybody's in contact fairly quickly.

[Induktio]

Develop build 20200508 is now available from project website. The commits mostly deal with cleaning up the code base, but here are the changes since release v1.0:

* AI should build defenders on empty bases faster
* AI now sometimes builds Geosynchronous Survey Pods and Flechette Defense Systems
* AI tries to avoid building combat-related facilities on peacetime
* Small tweaks to prototype picker/PSI preference algorithm
* Prototype planner now tries to create trance/interceptor units
* New option: eco_damage_fix should increase AI eco damage to the same level than player bases

However, that eco damage change should NOT have significant effects to the game balance. It may just increase the frequency of sea level rises. Tell me if you notice differences.

Also due to glitches in the game binary, trance units may not always appear even if the AI faction has the prerequisite tech.

[EmpathCrawler]

* New option: eco_damage_fix should increase AI eco damage to the same level than player bases

However, that eco damage change should NOT have significant effects to the game balance. It may just increase the frequency of sea level rises. Tell me if you notice differences.

 Looking forward to helping the AI get rekd by Planet once I fix my mouse. Appreciate the work you're doing!

[Nexii]

> I think this might actually be a net buff for the AI, since the +30% multipliers it gets on Transcend let it far outproduce, and outtech, human players.

This is an important point that I've been thinking about. There are many mods out there that claim to "balance" gameplay by delaying crawlers/boreholes/pop booming and so forth. But the thing is, the AI doesn't micromanage these elements together as efficiently as a human could. The AI doesn't understand the value of stacking all these bonuses in one base to create super science cities, for example.

So in the end it might produce a benefit for the human player to have these tools available that can be combined in a powerful way. Without them, the game becomes much more about raw growth/colonization speed. And good luck trying to match 6 other Thinker factions with 30% discounts in the early land grabbing phase.

Yea I had been thinking about this. I would say it's about more than just modding so the AI is more competitive. With the base tech tree, there was really one optimal way to play. Rush right to Condensor, Borehole, Crawler. And ICS. 75% of the tech tree just wasn't relevant due to overcosted abilities, overcosted facilities, overcosted armor, etc. Many SE picks weren't viable, air units very undercosted. And so on. It got a bit stale for me as it's more or less the same strategy every single game.

However:
A stronger AI is more fun to play against. I do sort of crave for that. It does a lot of silly things unmodded. At 30% Transcend would be pretty much impossible. Wouldn't be the end of the world IMO. Taking Master of Magic as an example the best players don't expect to win most games on the highest difficulty.

[Tayta Malikai]

> Can you provide save games where this happens consistently? Does it happen more often in sea bases?

I wasn't able to produce a situation where the AI consistently leaves its bases empty, unfortunately. I'll try and keep a lookout for these situations in my next game, with the new build.

I haven't noticed sea bases being particularly left empty; the AI usually builds at least a token defender there. In fact, since land units can't leave sea bases, it's probably less likely to find an empty one!

> Were you playing this with Thinker or The Will to Power tech cost formula? Those two are NOT the same btw. We might increase the late game costs if they are still too low.

This was with Thinker mod only. I haven't touched Will to Power yet.

What tech cost formula does WtP use? I couldn't find any description in its files despite saying one was in the readme.

> Without them, the game becomes much more about raw growth/colonization speed. And good luck trying to match 6 other Thinker factions with 30% discounts in the early land grabbing phase.

So in other words, it comes back down to the AI cheating its pants off again.

That said, I'd certainly prefer to err on the side of AI that's too strong rather than too weak. I'll keep playing at 30% and see what I can come up with.

Yea I had been thinking about this. I would say it's about more than just modding so the AI is more competitive. With the base tech tree, there was really one optimal way to play. Rush right to Condensor, Borehole, Crawler. And ICS. 75% of the tech tree just wasn't relevant due to overcosted abilities, overcosted facilities, overcosted armor, etc. Many SE picks weren't viable, air units very undercosted. And so on. It got a bit stale for me as it's more or less the same strategy every single game.

However:
A stronger AI is more fun to play against. I do sort of crave for that. It does a lot of silly things unmodded. At 30% Transcend would be pretty much impossible. Wouldn't be the end of the world IMO. Taking Master of Magic as an example the best players don't expect to win most games on the highest difficulty.

It seems to me that everyone agrees that the base game was broken, but nobody agrees on how to fix it.

I'd say the human player can be a lot more ruthless than the AI, though. The AI still isn't great at launching coordinated attacks, and large AI empires can be carefully dismantled through looking for weak points and concentrating force. The main difficulty is finding a way to do so before the AI's cumulative bonuses leads them into an unstoppable tech runaway.

Oh, by the way. It's been brought to my attention that nerve stapling drones has basically no consequences in the very early game. I wonder if it would be a good idea to teach the AI to nerve staple when it doesn't have any commlinks with other factions and/or commerce income coming in?

[lolada]

I don't think AI leaves the base empty. Defenders probably get killed by worms. Yesterday i thought stupid aliens.. they left the base empty again and i moved my units in just to see Drones needlejets around. So its not faulty AI per se.. units get killed at least in this case.
Now, AI do not switch production immediately but finish whatever it is building and (probably) then builds a defender. So base can get empty quite a few turns. This is with will to power and older thinker ai.

On improving AI.. AI will always be AI - i played several games with thinker AI only (on transcend) and its quite challenging - basically in "normal" playstyle as a player you need to build a lot of bases and pump those boreholes and condensers or its tought to keep up. AI also spams supply crawlers so as a player you have to do it or lag a lot. This does indeed make AI much stronger than in vanilla. AI can even popboom - i must admit i really don't like this mechanic.

It has its downside - you are pretty much forced to play certain playstyle. Massive former, colony pod spam, to crawlers and boreholes.. some infrastructure and then maybe to pop-boom its not mandatory, So it does get a bit stale => the reason why i tried Will to power. Then you get satelites early and game is kind of broken .. especially if you pop-boom properly. Anyway, another thing i found not fun is that for example in my last game i had very strong Hive (in monsoon jungle) that kept sending units and probes over war-zone and i waited behind for like 50+ turns and just killed anything quite easily until i got needlejets - after which i went on and slowly conquered him. Hive is hard to conquer, but there was no real danger attacker units usually win and level up and it goes snowbally.

Fun is subjective.. anyway Will to power changed a lot of things. Start - same applies, but formers are 40 minerals, colony pod 60 (it gets cheaper with reactors which are available eariler).. and supply crawlers are 120 minerals fixed. So that changes a lot. Forests nerfed - fungus buffed thats important as well. Anyway, Will to power changes combat - units are much more likely to die and factions have +50% to attack, defense in own territory. This really makes it hard to stomp AI as it equals the odds. Author wanted attacker to lose 2-3 units per 1 in base (if of equal strength). Armors and weapons are rebalance to be equal  lel until strength 10-13-16 then attacker gets ahead. Made a game much more fun for me at least. It can get you angry sometime tho lol. This mod also has some issues but they are of different kind.

Saying all this because i don't think only AI improvements only will "fix" the game. Now you may not like this mod, there are others i intend to try as well. In the end modding the game to own liking seems the final step ^^.

[Nexii]

Oh, by the way. It's been brought to my attention that nerve stapling drones has basically no consequences in the very early game. I wonder if it would be a good idea to teach the AI to nerve staple when it doesn't have any commlinks with other factions and/or commerce income coming in?

I believe it was said somewhere that you can only nerve staple a base 3 times total. That is a good idea to abuse it early.

[EmpathCrawler]

That's right, you can do it 2-3 times and then they build up an immunity to it.

[Induktio]

> I believe it was said somewhere that you can only nerve staple a base 3 times total. That is a good idea to abuse it early.

When previous staple count is < 2, next staple always succeeds. When it's > 7, next staple always fails, otherwise there's a random chance it will work. That's what the code says. But I wouldn't make the AI ignore atrocity restrictions in this one, it's sounds too gamey.

> What tech cost formula does WtP use? I couldn't find any description in its files despite saying one was in the readme.

Yeah, the tech costs are different and slightly bugged. WtP formula totally ignores faction research rating currently. Yep, you read right.

Basically WtP costs grow first in a cubic rate and then linearly. The point where it switches type depends on the tech's level. AI factions don't get any difficulty level discounts, instead human faction costs are determined by cost_factor parameter. That kinda mixes up the purpose of the parameter, since it already affects AI mineral/food production speed.

> I don't think AI leaves the base empty. Defenders probably get killed by worms.

In the latest update, they should also start rebuilding defenders faster, even force switch from producing some other facility.

I'm kind of interested in merging that patch for territory combat bonus, but I haven't made any decision on it since these patches are not simple. The code dealing with combat is pretty complex. Long term it would be useful to rewrite some combat functions in C++ so then they could be adjusted in an easier way. The bonus kind of reminds me of the idea I had earlier about making roads not usable on other faction's territory. In a way it serves the same purpose of making steamroll offense much harder, for players especially.

[lolada]

What do you mean by research rating being ignored in wtp? I see i tech faster when i pick up + research from SE for example? You mean bonus like university have is ignored?

Merging territory bonus is quite a big change. Its great for challenge but, its not intuitive at first. Defenders gets +50% defense is clear - meaning you attack they defend better. Simple ok. But it also works if you enter their territory and they counterattack - they get +50% territory attack bonus. So entering enemy territory without  good armor is quite suicidal, surprised me quite a few times. Even armored units get quite a big disadvantage.. basically entering enemy land in forest or fungus is neutral. I believe this mechanic really annoyed bvanevery for example. WTP also makes you lose combat even when you are 4:1, 5:1 .. unlike vanilla, takes time to getting used to.

I find it great challenge tho, its really not that simple to go and stomp transcend AI. It does promote maybe builder style too much for first half of the game.

Two questions:
1. is mind-probe thing bugged? +3 Probe says bases can't be subverted, but AI overrides that. They didn't have enchanced Probe teams.
AI spams hundreds of probe teams - in wtp they are heavily armored and quite a pain.

2. Is +4 Probe team bug fixed? +4 being equal to zero? Thanks

[EmpathCrawler]

So far I'm enjoying watching the Zakharov that's way ahead of me getting savaged by fungal pops. I'm probably about to get taken apart by him and Yang, though, so this game might be at an end.


I have spotted him building fusion probability supply crawlers. Is that intentional?

[Tayta Malikai]

> But I wouldn't make the AI ignore atrocity restrictions in this one, it's sounds too gamey.

Fair enough. It's a somewhat marginal advantage anyway.

And heh, with all this talk of making the AI stronger:




That's me (teal) about to be crushed by the AI's (orange) worm swarm.
(These are all custom factions I'm playtesting; the graphics are a placeholder.)

I suppose I could've played on after that, but let's be real, I'd never have caught up after losing half my production and all my projects.

It was a very frustrating game: playing as a peaceful trading faction with no real production advantages, every single AI I met instantly declared war on me. This isn't really Thinker's fault, but it does accentuate the difference between factions with strong production or military capabilities they can use to gain an edge.