SMACX Thinker Mod

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

It may be hard noticeable bug then. People rarely rename stuff. And even if they do they do not move cursor beyond the text on purpose.

[Induktio]

I recently had an idea to add one new feature: the ability to select custom factions while the expansion is disabled (using the smac-in-smacx mod). Currently if you set load_expansion=0, the choices in the faction selection screen are locked, like in vanilla SMAC. With some small tweaks, it is possible to reactivate the faction drop down menu that is available in SMACX and select any custom factions.

Alas, there's one issue with this: Alien factions are also visible in the menu and selecting them causes some weird behaviour while playing the game. I'm not sure if there's any easy way to hide them from the drop down menu, but this is not an issue as long as they are not selected. Otherwise I don't see any major obstacles to adding this feature.

Elite probe destroys defensive facilities (perimeter, tachyon) with 75% success rate. As they are so cheap destroying enemy defensive facilities in front of your army becomes a very effective strategy. The problem here is that AI does not use it massively while human does. It essentially renders AI defensive facilities useless against human player.
As your mod targets AI improvement do you consider modding this aspect of the game? If yes, there could be multiple ways to do it starting with those I pull from the top of my head in this post.
http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=21129.msg117489#msg117489

Well, it can be said probe teams are a little overpowered against AI, but then again, lots of other units can also be used to overwhelm the AI defenses because it doesn't allocate the defenders that well. I'd say modding those probe action success rates is not really priority, although disallowing certain probe actions in addition to just mind control might make sense if the target has +3 PROBE. If we went on changing those probabilities, then the mind control costs could need tweaking as well. They can also be a really easy way to capture some bases.

Wow. Never mind. I just uninstalled and reinstalled a fresh original version from GOG. It has the same bug!

So are you saying this bug is present in the unmodified game (GOG version) as well?

[Induktio]

Induktio,
Did you see anywhere if AI is able to build units with Soporific Gas Pods at all? In general, are there settings for AI prescribing what unit types to build (chassis, weapon, armor, abilities) and in what proportion?

I haven't seen the AI design any Soporific units. There's a long, complicated function in the game binary that chooses which prototypes to create. I have not directly modded it, instead Thinker creates independently a couple of additional prototypes (probe teams etc) which are then usually chosen for production.

PvtHudson mentioned it doesn't build any Algo Enhanced probes, but this might be caused by the fact that Algo Enhancement is so late in the standard tech tree it's somewhat unsual to see the AIs reach that stage of development. The prototype planner should design Enhanced probes immediately when it has the Enhancement tech in addition to fusion reactors and the tech to select 2 special abilities.

As a clarification to the previous post, I might consider tweaking the AI probe team actions especially if it ignores some useful probe team actions altogether. I have not written any code for that part yet, so it's in the "maybe" category of future improvements.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Wow. Never mind. I just uninstalled and reinstalled a fresh original version from GOG. It has the same bug!

So are you saying this bug is present in the unmodified game (GOG version) as well?

Yep. I've uninstalled completely, deleted folder, reinstall from my GOG library and was able to reproduce.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Elite probe destroys defensive facilities (perimeter, tachyon) with 75% success rate. As they are so cheap destroying enemy defensive facilities in front of your army becomes a very effective strategy. The problem here is that AI does not use it massively while human does. It essentially renders AI defensive facilities useless against human player.
As your mod targets AI improvement do you consider modding this aspect of the game? If yes, there could be multiple ways to do it starting with those I pull from the top of my head in this post.
http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=21129.msg117489#msg117489

Well, it can be said probe teams are a little overpowered against AI, but then again, lots of other units can also be used to overwhelm the AI defenses because it doesn't allocate the defenders that well. I'd say modding those probe action success rates is not really priority, although disallowing certain probe actions in addition to just mind control might make sense if the target has +3 PROBE. If we went on changing those probabilities, then the mind control costs could need tweaking as well. They can also be a really easy way to capture some bases.

Disabling probe actions against +3 PROBE is a good idea. Makes perfect sense. Need to think which ones. Disabling infiltration completely is probably not needed.

Actually, if you want go this path, I have an interesting idea in mind. Each enemy +1 PROBE decreases ALL percentages by 25% both success and survival. This way at +3 PROBE rating no targeted destroying defensive facilities possible as even for Elite team with AE the success chance goes down to 0%. It makes a very good sense as now PROBE rating is actually plays defensive role as it should and makes it more difficult for enemy to carry out their spy tasks. At the same time normally 100% success actions like infiltration are still possible at 25% rate. That includes random sabotage that may occasionally destroy defense but it'll take a lot of probes to get to it.

It will also make PROBE effect actually quite valuable. In vanilla game its effect is pretty unimportant besides disabling subversion at +3 rate.

[Induktio]

It's been quite a while since last update, but there's still more in development. I added a couple of smaller tweaks this time, e.g. the ability to select custom factions while smac-in-smacx is active. Could still add a couple of more features before deploying a new version for testing.

It's hard to say which features would be the best to implement here given the benefit/time ratios. I could maybe improve the unit movement code or tweak the production AI but not sure if there's any simple, obvious improvements left. If the build queue was rewritten we could maybe look at the facility choices in a more abstract way, so the planner could rebalance the production choices even if the costs/maintenance of facilities are modded. That's how the AI works in later Civ games also, so in essence it doesn't have any hardcoded build order.

Other topic is also the possibility of implementing new modding features. There's been a couple of ideas in this thread, but do we have any consensus of some really useful modding features that are currently missing?

[DrazharLn]

The bug where you get the wrong faction art and stuff when loading a scenario save game or similar is pretty annoying, especially for people playing multiplayer games (including PBEM, which your mod presumably doesn't break?)

That bug makes lots of modding more tedious and reduces potential audience.

[BFG]

I've had random crashes with Thinker...they usually occur when I tried to load a colony pod onto a Unity Transport Foil.  But the crash didn't happen every time.  It seemed like it was trying to set the move coordinates to (0,0) so it could be due to that fix.  I'll try to get more info to make sure.

Meanwhile...I approve!  Tried to play a pacifist/builder Miriam game and got my butt kicked.

[Induktio]

> I've had random crashes with Thinker...they usually occur when I tried to load a colony pod onto a Unity Transport Foil.

Can't say much without a save game to inspect. I do suspect it's because of something else happening in the background because Thinker is not supposed to affect player-controlled units in any way.

> The bug where you get the wrong faction art and stuff when loading a scenario save game or similar is pretty annoying, especially for people playing multiplayer games (including PBEM, which your mod presumably doesn't break?)

I'm not familiar with this bug at all. How do you actually trigger it? Does it have anything to do with this entry in Scient patch notes?

52. [BUG] Fixed an issue where diplomacy dialog could be incorrectly displayed due to faction id value being set incorrectly. This is best exhibited where Progenitors switch into "Human" dialog syntax.

[BFG]

I failed to save the game where I had the random crashes.  Will be sure to do so next time.

[PvtHudson]

It's hard to say which features would be the best to implement here given the benefit/time ratios.

IMHO, it would serve AI's best interests to tighten up diplomacy. I.e., fight well-known exploits, and teach AIs to better choose their friends and enemies. Though don't know how about benefit/time ratio for these.

Other topic is also the possibility of implementing new modding features.

Is it possible for predefined units to not grant prototypes?

[BFG]

I’d just be happy at this point if the AI knew how to automate gravship formers correctly.  But I am sure I am in the minority there

On a different note, I can no longer find a solution for “get every single Secret Project” with Thinker like I can with the base AI.  My old primary strategy (Zak builder and pacifist) is no longer good enough to win, even on Librarian.

[Induktio]

IMHO, it would serve AI's best interests to tighten up diplomacy. I.e., fight well-known exploits, and teach AIs to better choose their friends and enemies. Though don't know how about benefit/time ratio for these.

Is it possible for predefined units to not grant prototypes?

Diplomacy could be a topic of interest.. I have done some research on it but the code seems a little complicated to modify. It would need some more insight to figure out what all the variables actually do there. But there seems to be much potential for improvement.

Probably there is some way of disallowing prototypes that have not been researched, so is this a feature that is considered generally important?

I’d just be happy at this point if the AI knew how to automate gravship formers correctly.  But I am sure I am in the minority there

On a different note, I can no longer find a solution for “get every single Secret Project” with Thinker like I can with the base AI.  My old primary strategy (Zak builder and pacifist) is no longer good enough to win, even on Librarian.

Hmm, interesting. Just think of it, this mod doesn't even grant any artificial production bonuses on top of the default cost ratios in the difficulty levels, unless they are explicitly activated from the config. If we compare this to let's say Civ 3, my main aim was to make Transcend level feel like, maybe not quite, but close to Deity in Civ 3. Maybe we can declare "achievement unlocked" in that aspect.

Gravship formers are certainly a possibility, I've already thought about implementing them, but they feel a little like some late-game esoteric feature.

[BFG]

The main problem with gravship formers automation is that the AI thinks they can only alter land when in fact they can alter both land and sea squares.  I’ve been surprised at how poorly they are automated versus other key units I have added such as needlejet colony pods.  Still, there aren’t many games that even see gravships so it’s not much of a priority.

[bvanevery]

Probably there is some way of disallowing prototypes that have not been researched, so is this a feature that is considered generally important?

It's been important to my modding.  Because predefined units give away the prototypes, I adopted a policy of giving out such prototypes "one tech later" than when you could, in principle, make a given unit.  So for instance I have Doctrine: Initiative as a prereq for Doctrine: Air Power.  I can't give out a Cruiser Probe Team until Doctrine: Air Power.  It's annoying.  It makes a big difference later in the game, as Tier 4 vs. Tier 5 techs can be separated by a rather long time in my tree.  Even Tier 2 vs. Tier 3 can take a long time in my tree, because I've pressed so many techs earlier.  My tree is "broad" now.  In your core area of research, Explore Discover Build Conquer, not as many delays, but outside your core, considerable delays.  To the point that some people have noticed it can feel like a tech stagnation game. 

So my $0.02 is yes, this matters.  A lot.

I also increased prototype cost by 200% in my mod.  Originally Tim's idea, but I ran with it.  So getting a Synthmetal Sentinel together is a substantial challenge in my mod now.  If you're really in a pinch, you can blow an Artifact on it.  That'll work.  I actually had to do that in a recent game I played, and I think it was worth it, to overcome the otherwise 10..15 turn delay.

Gravship formers are certainly a possibility, I've already thought about implementing them, but they feel a little like some late-game esoteric feature.

I don't know where your .exe is at with late game AI terraforming.  For a stock .exe it's a non-issue.  The AI is never going to beat a competent player on Transcend.  The human player will get ahead, the AI is always going to be somewhat behind.  Caveat: the interim periods when I didn't know how to play my own mod yet.  But that passes.  Anyways, I terraform every single square by hand.  Gravships would never be useful to me.  Too late game, I've already done everything needed by then.

The uber technology is the Hovertank Former.  That is very useful for making long rails over fungus or rocks.  One may need to remove fungus to lay a mag tube, depending on one's tech.  You just hover over the fungus instead of wasting a turn moving onto it.  Same things with rocks.  Infantry and Rover chasses lose a turn getting onto the rocks.

Meanwhile on the oceans, Cruiser formers work just fine and will be available way, way earlier than Gravships.  In version 1.27 of my mod I made Gravships available "earlier".  It still doesn't manage to come early, it's a late game thing.  Hovertanks come much earlier too, like midgame, same time as Cruisers.  In fact I have Cruisers and Hovertanks as the prereqs for Needlejets.  That may not be logical from a lore standpoint, but I consider a faster chassis to be an Explore tech.  So they feed the next big deal Explore tech, which is planes.  One could argue for a Ship -> Plane -> Hovertank progression instead, and I wouldn't call it wrong, but I'm doing it the way I'm doing it.

I haven't been able to get the stock AI to use Hovertank Formers.  I tried, but it just wasn't interested in building them.