half the tech tree doesn't matter

[bvanevery]

I always play with Blind Research, the default that the game was designed around.  I have an aversion to Transcending as I'm morally opposed to it.  Thus I am quite suprised to discover, on a strict examination of the tech tree, that something like half the techs aren't necessary to Transcend!  You don't need Quantum or Singularity engines.  Various other things just aren't on the path.  I think the Explore, Discover, Build, Conquer research mechanic has tended to obscure this reality over the years, because it makes it more difficult to move straight in one direction on the tree.  I tend to just play the game, and forget about such settings for awhile, so it's a bit like trying to hit an 8-ball in the corner pocket when someone keeps yabbering in your ear and distracting you with jokes, beer, physiques, etc.

I'm in the middle of a massive "Realism" mod of the tech tree.  I haven't added any techs, but I've completely reshuffled the relationships between them, trying to make categories and abilities have relevance to each other.  I don't think I've had to really shoehorn anything, although the changes have been difficult to contemplate and have taken a lot of iterations.  I haven't changed the "minimalist" aesthetic of transcending, yet, but I wonder if I should.  I mean come on, shouldn't you know how to manipulate a Singularity if you're going to become an energy being?

[ChocolateTeapot]

If the goal is some approximation of realism, I don’t think only having half the tech tree lead to one particular ending is really a problem. It’s not something I have strong feelings on though.

Some interesting thoughts on Civilization V’s realism can be found in this article, https://killscreen.com/articles/civilization-coming-classrooms-thats-bad-idea/ and its comments on that game’s tech tree might be somewhat relevant. Basically, from a realism standpoint, the tech tree is too constant a view of progress, insufficiently messy and doesn’t consider scientific “dead ends”.

Having “dead ends” probably isn’t much fun, but having a bunch of techs that aren’t required for Transcendence reduces the overtly teleological aspects of it. It’s the ending given most narrative space, but Alpha Centauri is about other things as well.

I’m also not sure that the “basic Transcendence package” actually involves becoming an energy being. For a quick description, I’d say it’s more like the transhuman fantasy of uploading yourself into a computer Planet, something I don’t feel that manipulation of a singularity is a glaringly obvious prerequisite for, though I wouldn’t be bothered if it were either.

[bvanevery]

The narrative of the game suggests that Transcendence is this goofy "uploading" thing.  However the artwork and the tech tree of the game suggest we become energy beings.  You have to master Matter Transmission and Temporal Mechanics to transcend, which I seriously doubt you'd need to do if you only need to upload a copy of your consciousness.

Details energybeings

energybeings

CivilizationEDU is trying to keep students from falling asleep in history classes.  The values of entertainment vs. accuracy vs. scope are always going to be compromised in some way.  Would you really have spent a grade school curriculum on the alchemical origins of chemistry?  Nope.  Can a history game tell everything about history, including the entire history of chemistry?  Nope.  I do agree that the "Western progress narrative" is a problem, but the complaints the article author is making, don't actually offer a solution.

Personally I think the answer would be to write a game about a much more limited period of history, say, the Great Pyramid building period of Egypt.  With less scope, there could be more accuracy, especially compared to a grade school syllabus.  We actually had a TA do something like this is in my 8th grade US History class, which was otherwise a dead bore.  He had us play 2 games: a very simplified version of Diplomacy between 7 countries, and a role playing simulation of being stuck with a company store to purchase one's food and booze (XXX).  He gave the "enforcer goon" job to a couple of kids who actually bullied me in real life!  As this is most of what I remember about the otherwise very dull class, I guess it's worth something.

Now the problem is, for such EDU games to exist, some game has to make money as pure entertainment, to survive long enough to be noticed by educators.  Civ has done this, nothing else has.  So you gets what you gets in a difficult market.

[Buster's Uncle]

...The kiddy ed thing might be good for mucho free publicity, even be responsible for it hitting the majors, given VERY adroit handling to not have that soil the game's image as only kiddy ed...

-Exactly right about focus as an aid to educational elements...

[bvanevery]

I seem to recall the game industry having historical animosity towards Edutainment software, 1) because it simply wouldn't make them money, and 2) development of such titles is difficult and different from pure entertainment concerns.  A fair number of developers in industry simply didn't want to do it, guess they wanted to bash trolls.  I do recall a number of years ago the "serious games" movement, but that was much less about EDU, and much more about simulations that various paying agencies would fork over for.  Fire simulation, military simulation, evacuation exercises, that sort of thing.  Maybe corporate roleplay.  I have lost track of the status of "serious gaming" because it wasn't speaking to my needs as an artist.  Seemed like big hoops to jump through, to make money, not just like oh now here's your "serious games" version of the title you were otherwise working on.

Slitherine Studios managed to turn their wargaming expertise into a TV show, "Deadliest Warrior".  I wonder if TV documentaries are a worthwhile market or not, "educational" but not compromising entertainment production values.  I think the History Channel may have done some game spinoffs over the years, but I can't remember the titles or whether they were any good.

Due to larger market sizes, there's always the potential for "that was then, this is now" to inform one's thinking on such matters.  But it's definitely an area where one would want to do the due diligence.  "Build it and they will come" is probably a recipe for disaster, given the history.

[Buster's Uncle]

Image problem aside, one imagines it might be necessary to collaborate with an entity already working the education market, and that might get pretty darn Mickey Mouse on the creative end...

[bvanevery]

Or be big enough that you have the capital to move into a new market.

[Buster's Uncle]

Yah.  Not likely, and not likely to succeed v. the old hands if you do...

[bvanevery]

We need Neural Grafting for the children, so that a new media market can open up.  Anytime there's a new way to deliver content, someone cashes in.  Worked for Myst, for instance.

[Buster's Uncle]

...You don't need schools to do it anyway - the REAL money's in a game that adolescents of ALL ages will like that you can sell to their soccer moms, and THAT'S mere marketing and getting into Best Buy/Walmart, etc., or wherever the 'burban moms shop for their kids...

[ChocolateTeapot]

Not having seen CivEdu, I can’t comment on its specifics. If it’s similar to Civ5, it definitely could create enthusiasm for learning history. I also agree the difficulty of the entertainment/scope/accuracy trade-off and with your assessment of the real world economic issues behind the game. No human history teacher I encountered at school would have withstood that article’s criticism, and Civ5 actually does more to address them than they did.

(I really only linked to that article because I felt its comments about the tech tree might be worthwhile for thoughts about modding realism. There are bound to be articles online that make the point better and without that baggage of addressing CivEdu, but I’m unaware of them. I should probably have looked, though the discussion here based on that is interesting.)

Energy being is certainly a fair assessment based on the population icon. I personally don’t interpret them that way, as to me it looks more like someone standing against a very bright light than something they are emitting themselves, and in the standard game they come with Secrets of Alpha Centauri, which does not otherwise like a tech for energy beings.

I agree that Temporal Mechanics at least seems rather much for a “simple” upload. I think Matter Transmission should remain necessary though, given that its “disassemble someone perfectly” might be required for a perfect upload. Though Matter Edition might be enough for that particular aspect. But that's going in the other direction than what you are interested in.

[bvanevery]

- the REAL money's in a game that adolescents of ALL ages will like that you can sell to their soccer moms,

I'll probably leave that to the unfortunates like Notch, who stumble into it without even trying.  What a miserable SOB he's turned out to be, last I read.

That said, I do think about the 13 year old neighbor kid's input to the problem, as well as what it would mean to ship a "family / teen friendly" game.  He's far more into FPS and I doubt that he's picked up SMAC again after my 1st attempt getting him to play it.  I would probably have to supervise, which probably means getting a LAN party working.  We ran out of time last time.

and in the standard game they come with Secrets of Alpha Centauri, which does not otherwise like a tech for energy beings.

I don't actually believe its location in the tech tree decides the matter.  In general I think the SMAC authors did a bad job of repositing various abilities in techs they are actually relevant to.  I think those decisions were probably made for game balancing purposes, despite whatever "original intents" they may have had to put an ability here or there.  Also there surely comes a point in development where they just don't want to playtest and bughunt new arrangements of stuff.  I'm facing that very problem right now, after my huge tech tree reshuffle... I have to actually play this thing!  Enough times to determine whether my changes are doing something or nothing.  That could easily take me a month if I let it.  I will at least start with "many days", then I may just have to package it up and put it out in front of other people for testing.  And then, I may not even get any takers.

[Vidsek]

     I for one would be interested in giving it a try.   Might even set it up from what you've presented in this thread and test it myself  (eventually...).

[bvanevery]

Thanks for the interest.  I'm finding that reshuffling a tech tree is a lot like playing Tetris.  I keep on trying to shove techs down into voids to make lines disappear of similar techs be comparable in power.  This has messed with my "perfect ideas about narrative" somewhat.  Although much of the spirit of trying to keep things "logical" remains, I don't feel comfortable calling it the "Realism" mod anymore.  I'm realizing that many of the categories can be connected in many ways to each other.  Now I see it as the "game balancing" mod, but that's not a catchy or inherently meaningful title, so I'll need to come up with something better.  A lot of Secret Projects and weapons are pushed later in the tree.  The fission era lasts much longer, it takes a long time to get Fusion Power.

[gwillybj]

I've been experimenting with alphax.txt in various ways for as long as I've had the game - about six months after its release. The tech tree has been my favorite place to play since early on. Below is a link to a post from a while ago showing what I had done. I know I've changed a few things since then, but there's enough there to see what can be done on a large scale.

http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=8413.msg47190#msg47190

Please keep in mind that this was all for my own benefit:

• to take the Progenitors completely out of the game,
• to link all of the technologies so every one is required to Transcend,
• and to make each game last longer.