New Custom Faction: Wheeler Raiders

[ComradeCrimson]

Just wanted to say I've quite enjoyed reading your guys thorough debate. I find Alpha Centauri has to be one of the most prolific games of the 90's, as stated a time capsule of what was thought to be a potential tomorrow, and a comparison to the social problems and issues of the time.

Also, I've yet to receive a reply from Princess Foundry. Just figuring to mention that, if you are still interested in me voicing stuff for this.

[Trenacker]

Thanks. It's been quite a bit of fun.

I'd love more feedback on the custom faction ideas discussed here, whether the Wheeler Raiders, the Hunters of Chiron, the Human Ascendancy, the Tribe, the Dreamers of Chiron, the Honored Dead, the Glory, or the New Two Thousand.

[bvanevery]

His original psych profile on the game website very clearly indicates that he manipulated his evaluator.

I guess you're going to make me go look at the teeny, tiny amount of background material presented about him during the course of a regular game.  As opposed to the vast swath of quotes that primarily define him as a player plays the game.

Yang is also closely associated with the Chinese philosophy of legalism, which proposes that a ruler should use subterfuge as a tool of governance.

You say this but why is a Western audience supposed to know anything about it?  It's not like the game says "Yang is a proponent of legalism."  Rather, you figure it's part of his backstory, even though it isn't stated anywhere.  Maybe after I've looked at all of Yang's game materials more closely again, I'll make the stronger claim that you're flat out making this up / inserting it.  That it isn't actually there or stated anywhere, that you interpret Yang in this manner.  Which might not be completely unfair and no evidence may be provided to the contrary, but it comes off a lot like someone saying, "Gandalf is this and this and that."  Really?  Where is it in the book?  How would a reader know it?

Not seeing the "low odds of success", frankly.  They built a big ship.  That's predicated on shipping experience in the solar system.

For a trip that requires automation to a level until then unprecedented.

I suppose you think they zipped to Mars in a day?  That's not hard sci-fi.

Leads of whole nations may calculate that they cannot really empathize with imagined future generations enough to risk their own hides for them.

Getting off-world is not about risking one's hide for someone else!  It's about saving your own bacon, if you think Earth is doomed.

Yes, orbital habs are probably a thing. Yet they are far more easily destroyed than whole worlds.

I dunno, if destroyed = rendered uninhabitable for a generation, it's not that tough to destroy a world.

[Trenacker]

I guess you're going to make me go look at the teeny, tiny amount of background material presented about him during the course of a regular game.  As opposed to the vast swath of quotes that primarily define him as a player plays the game.

Kindly drop the attitude.

One of the joys of the 1990s and early 2000s was the world-building material that accompanied games such as Alpha Centauri, StarCraft, and Command & Conquer. It represented a significant investment of time and care on the part of game designers. Speaking only for myself, that material, which included a lengthy piece of fiction published in the instruction manual and later continued on the official SMAC website, enhanced my enjoyment of the game by adding depth to the factions.

You say this but why is a Western audience supposed to know anything about it?  It's not like the game says "Yang is a proponent of legalism."  Rather, you figure it's part of his backstory, even though it isn't stated anywhere.  Maybe after I've looked at all of Yang's game materials more closely again, I'll make the stronger claim that you're flat out making this up / inserting it.  That it isn't actually there or stated anywhere, that you interpret Yang in this manner.  Which might not be completely unfair and no evidence may be provided to the contrary, but it comes off a lot like someone saying, "Gandalf is this and this and that."  Really?  Where is it in the book?  How would a reader know it?

You're right. I misremembered. Neither the instruction manual nor the Yang bio on SMAC's website refer to legalism. This was apparently a popular conclusion drawn by the fan base after the game's release. Echoes of it appear on the Civilization Wiki, the "Paean to SMAC" blog (which engages in a partial reimagining of some factions, to be sure), the game's Wikipedia page, and including what I take to be an official GURPS RPG adaptation from late 2002 that includes a one-word reference to the philosophy among Yang's character skills.

I think the reference to Legalism gives Yang some needed depth. The real question is whether collectivism and authoritarianism are ideologies on the same level as environmentalism and capitalism, or just methods of social organization that can be laid atop most ideologies -- in which case Yang would benefit from a unique ideology of his own.

I suppose you think they zipped to Mars in a day?  That's not hard sci-fi.

I think the first manned expedition outside the Sol System would be regarded as far more challenging than missions to Mars, which would not involve hibernation of the same duration.

Getting off-world is not about risking one's hide for someone else!  It's about saving your own bacon, if you think Earth is doomed.

Not if you believe that it will be three, four, five, or six lifetimes before the world finally ends. "To rule in Hell..."

I dunno, if destroyed = rendered uninhabitable for a generation, it's not that tough to destroy a world.

No, it isn't. And it's even easier to destroy a hab.

[bvanevery]

You're right. I misremembered. Neither the instruction manual nor the Yang bio on SMAC's website refer to legalism. This was apparently a popular conclusion drawn by the fan base after the game's release. Echoes of it appear on the Civilization Wiki, the "Paean to SMAC" blog (which engages in a partial reimagining of some factions, to be sure), the game's Wikipedia page, and including what I take to be an official GURPS RPG adaptation from late 2002 that includes a one-word reference to the philosophy among Yang's character skills.

Interesting to know.  It might be frustrating for a fan base to arrive at ideas, only to have authors or screenwriters squash / eliminate them when finally designating a canon.  Not that SMAC has this problem; I'm thinking of Star Wars or Star Trek fans.  Not that I've followed their fandoms enough to know what their community harrunges might be.  I've had a rather solo experience of sci-fi, which tends to orient me towards "the materials as presented".

I think the reference to Legalism gives Yang some needed depth.

All the faction leaders can benefit from more depth.  SMAC is a good effort for a game of its time and genre, but it isn't Game of Thrones.  Consider the writing and acting resources dedicated to each and it's pretty clear why character depth is going to fall short.  Isn't it interesting that it's the only 4X TBS I can think of, that has any character depth at all?  And that this hasn't changed in the 18 years since its release.

I'd say SMAC offers a fair amount of philosophical depth, quoting so may various philosophers, and allowing the main characters to be mouthpieces of certain philosophies.  Yang expounds on death, nihilism, and collectivism a lot.  But I think we're realizing in this debate, that philosophical depth does not equate to character depth.  The cognitive dissonance of this can be seen when doing diplomacy with Yang.  Yes it's cool that the faction leaders have any depth at all when doing diplomacy, but compared to the level of nuance Yang displays in his quotes and passages, interacting with "Yang your enemy" can be quite jarring as to how straightforward he is. 

The real question is whether collectivism and authoritarianism are ideologies on the same level as environmentalism and capitalism, or just methods of social organization that can be laid atop most ideologies -- in which case Yang would benefit from a unique ideology of his own.

I'm inclined to see the Communist version of collectivism as a distinct ideology, but that in practice wasn't much implemented.  Instead, the actual Communist regimes have been authoritarian, with the State and the Communist Party becoming the new ladder by which to dominate everything.  There's even a term for this... can't remember it, would have to pore over wiki pages about Socialism again to find it.  The wikipedia entry on Statism seems relevant to these musings in general, such as whether Authoritarianism or Fascism are ideologies.

I suppose you think they zipped to Mars in a day?  That's not hard sci-fi.

I think the first manned expedition outside the Sol System would be regarded as far more challenging than missions to Mars, which would not involve hibernation of the same duration.

I think those of us who have been paying attention to harder sci-fi since "2001: A Space Odyssey", have known that it takes a few years to hibernate your way around our solar system.  A few years vs. many more years would seem to be mainly about the number of things that can go wrong meanwhile.  Isn't it lucky for SMAC that they didn't get damaged until they were nearing final destination?  Not really a good reason to expect that, as opposed to getting nailed by micrometeorites between star systems.  If you've figured out how to hibernate your way around The Solar System without getting killed, you've solved a lot of problems.  I don't think "far" more challenging is accurate.

Sorta like arguing ocean-worthiness vs. Trans-Atlantic voyages.

Getting off-world is not about risking one's hide for someone else!  It's about saving your own bacon, if you think Earth is doomed.

Not if you believe that it will be three, four, five, or six lifetimes before the world finally ends. "To rule in Hell..."

And why would they believe they had that long?  The cutscene for The Planetary Datalinks indicates that the USA became a rather un-free place, big on information control.  That would seem to be a weatherbell of the whole world getting ready to go <POOF> frankly.  I'm supposing that the Unity still got built and launched as the USA was turning despotic.  That Unity was built in response to a crisis, and not when everything was peaches and rosy.  "Earth is turning to crap" is the premise of the opening cutscene of SMAC. 

[Trenacker]

Interesting to know.  It might be frustrating for a fan base to arrive at ideas, only to have authors or screenwriters squash / eliminate them when finally designating a canon.  Not that SMAC has this problem; I'm thinking of Star Wars or Star Trek fans.  Not that I've followed their fandoms enough to know what their community harrunges might be.  I've had a rather solo experience of sci-fi, which tends to orient me towards "the materials as presented".

I think the big issue around Star Wars is that the prequels filled in too many of the intriguing blanks that gave the Original Series its strong character, along with some of the flavor that was the "payoff" for being a Star Wars nerd of the early 1990s. (For example, I seem to recall that the Boba Fett of this era was radically different than the character depicted in Attack of the Clones.) Later, the fan base reacted negatively again to the Walt Disney Company's decision to revisit and redefine the canon.

Star Trek doesn't face quite the same problem because the writers more comfortably dip into alternate timelines, effectively allowing everybody to do their own thing.

I think that Alpha Centauri requires a bit of rework to really flesh out faction distinctiveness. As you point out, it also requires modification to suit the context of a politico-military simulation.

All the faction leaders can benefit from more depth.  SMAC is a good effort for a game of its time and genre, but it isn't Game of Thrones.  Consider the writing and acting resources dedicated to each and it's pretty clear why character depth is going to fall short.  Isn't it interesting that it's the only 4X TBS I can think of, that has any character depth at all?  And that this hasn't changed in the 18 years since its release.

Agreed. Although other games from around the same time, namely the two I mentioned, achieved similar feats. StarCraft went on to become a much more significant cultural phenomenon.

I'd say SMAC offers a fair amount of philosophical depth, quoting so may various philosophers, and allowing the main characters to be mouthpieces of certain philosophies.  Yang expounds on death, nihilism, and collectivism a lot.  But I think we're realizing in this debate, that philosophical depth does not equate to character depth.  The cognitive dissonance of this can be seen when doing diplomacy with Yang.  Yes it's cool that the faction leaders have any depth at all when doing diplomacy, but compared to the level of nuance Yang displays in his quotes and passages, interacting with "Yang your enemy" can be quite jarring as to how straightforward he is.

Without a doubt.

For my money, the best question to ask of the material is: what other factions remain to be explored. Thorn's faction, The Tribe, is probably the most fully-realized and compelling vision. People struggle today with living in the world. Irony of ironies: the faction called "Tribe" is all about civics.

I've probably badly subverted Lal, since in my games he is the consummate bureaucrat rather than a luminary on the dangers of illiberalism.

The Hunters appeal to me as a meditation on masculinity, even if they have an ecological and physiological dimension that is similar to both the Gaians and Spartans.

I'm inclined to see the Communist version of collectivism as a distinct ideology, but that in practice wasn't much implemented.  Instead, the actual Communist regimes have been authoritarian, with the State and the Communist Party becoming the new ladder by which to dominate everything.  There's even a term for this... can't remember it, would have to pore over wiki pages about Socialism again to find it.  The wikipedia entry on Statism seems relevant to these musings in general, such as whether Authoritarianism or Fascism are ideologies.

You are correct that the game had no true Communist, unless we count Yang. I suppose that he might be called a subversion. If he is a Legalist, then the Communism angle is lost entirely. All Communist regimes must technically be authoritarian; the question is when the dictatorship of the proletariat can end.

It was interesting to me that the game excluded an explicitly feudal faction, although it would be the default start for most. Hence my efforts with the Novo Estado.

Sorta like arguing ocean-worthiness vs. Trans-Atlantic voyages.

I look at a universe like that depicted in The Expanse. No need for cold sleep anymore for voyages within the Solar System. Certainly not for more than a week, at most.

And why would they believe they had that long?  The cutscene for The Planetary Datalinks indicates that the USA became a rather un-free place, big on information control.  That would seem to be a weatherbell of the whole world getting ready to go <POOF> frankly.  I'm supposing that the Unity still got built and launched as the USA was turning despotic.  That Unity was built in response to a crisis, and not when everything was peaches and rosy.  "Earth is turning to crap" is the premise of the opening cutscene of SMAC.

Plenty of people live in awful conditions like that depicted in the opening cutscene credits for years or even lifetimes.

To be quite fair, I assume a much longer period of decline and disaster on Earth.

[bvanevery]

Plenty of people live in awful conditions like that depicted in the opening cutscene credits for years or even lifetimes.

Well you have to / really should make allowance for SMAC's budget, as far as what they're trying to get across in the beginning of the opening cutscene.  Cue SMAC music:

Ya da yaa, ya da ya ya, cheap stuff...
Ya da yaa, ya da ya da, bud-get...
Ya da yaa, ya da ya da, Space Shuttle...
Ya da yaa, YAA Ya Ya, da Third World that's-what-it-all-is...
Third World!
Third World.
Third World?
Third World...

So do you buy their cheap montage that "the world is turning to s**t" or don't you?  If you do, then I think you have to assume the leaders are buying it too.  I mean people are flying on SPACE SHUTTLES AAAARGH!!!  Has to be an apocalypse around the corner.

[Trenacker]

In many Third World countries, "things have turned to [poop]." That doesn't mean the leaders are necessarily jumping ship: they often live insulated from the misery they have created.

[bvanevery]

Yes yes yes DO YOU BELIEVE that they launched Unity FOR A REASON or not?
If you believe it, leaders of the neo-Third World have a reason to believe it too.
It's that simple.

[Buster's Uncle]

The nation leaders on Earth were already on top - I don't see them rolling the dice for a trip to Planet X, short of fleeing a coup.  It's just not human nature, end of the world coming or not...

[ComradeCrimson]

It also comes to stand that, just because you were a leader on Earth, does not mean you stay a leader upon arrival of Chiron. The faction leaders of SMAC/SMACX are the results of highly popular or cunning individuals who knew how to manipulate power fairly well beyond a national scale. For instance, Sister Miriam was an almost messiah like figure as far as I am aware, prior her entry into the UNITY program as well as a person who had a great grasp on social behaviour and science; a person who effectively outpaced most leaders. And Lal for instance, is the closest thing to a governmental body from Earth still propagated, himself being the last UN head secretary, and therefore far higher in rank in this instance than any national leader due to the nature of the mission.

[bvanevery]

Well I guess this debate has been instructive in that people will find a way to believe anything, and retcon it, if they are sufficiently vested in their own vision of "what happened".  My idea of a lot of world leaders is people jumping off the Titanic.  The kind of guy who shoves his way onto the lifeboat, damn the whole "women and children first" thing.

[Buster's Uncle]

...If I was looking to live forever, I wouldn't run for President.  Too much of a target, the President...

[ComradeCrimson]

...If I was looking to live forever, I wouldn't run for President.  Too much of a target, the President...

Its also a good way to go grey fast. All that stress being a national leader and dealing with national politics; there's a reason Obama booked a vacation right as soon as he left office. Don't blame the man one bit.

[bvanevery]

A lot of people blame Presidents for taking vacations while they're in office for some reason.  Maybe they have no clue that it ain't exactly punching a clock for your shift.