Transgender bathrooms?

[Unorthodox]

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/south-dakota-passes-bill-bathrooms-transgender-students/

PIERRE, S.D. - South Dakota would be the first state in the U.S. to approve a law requiring transgender students to use bathrooms and locker rooms that correspond to their sex at birth if the governor signs a bill passed Tuesday by the state Senate.

The Senate voted 20-15 to send the bill to Republican Gov. Dennis Daugaard, who initially responded positively to the measure but said last week he'd need to study it more before making a decision.

Advocates say the bill is meant to protect the privacy of students, but opponents say it discriminates against vulnerable adolescents. CBS affiliate KELO in Sioux Falls reports that those opposed say that in addition to the likelihood it will lead to bullying, they also question the constitutionality of the bill and fear it will cost the state millions in lawsuits.

Under the plan, schools would have to provide a "reasonable accommodation" for transgender students, such as a single-occupancy bathroom or the "controlled use" of a staff-designated restroom, locker room or shower room.

Republican Sen. David Omdahl urged other legislators Tuesday to support the bill to "preserve the innocence of our young people."

Democratic lawmakers and some Republicans unsuccessfully opposed the measure in the Senate.

The American Civil Liberties Union of South Dakota and Human Rights Campaign have been vocal in their opposition to the measure and have called on Daugaard to veto the legislation.

"History has never looked kindly upon those who attack the basic civil rights of their fellow Americans, and history will not treat kindly those who support this discriminatory measure," Chad Griffin, the president of the LGBT-rights organization Human Rights Campaign, said in a statement Tuesday.

Transgender advocates have also criticized comments made by some lawmakers, including Omdahl, about transgender people.

"I'm sorry if you're so twisted you don't know who you are," Omdahl said at a recent event when asked about the bill. "I'm telling you right now, it's about protecting the kids, and I don't even understand where our society is these days."

Several states have looked at addressing gender and public facilities in the past several years. Late last year, the city of Houston was recently home to a bitter public fight over nondiscrimination rights that focused on transgender people's use of bathrooms.

But South Dakota would be the first state in the nation to put such a measure into law, said Joellen Kralik, a research analyst at the National Conference of State Legislatures.

The Legislature's passage of the bill is "shocking," said Thomas Lewis, a transgender student in his senior year at Lincoln High School in Sioux Falls, the state's most populous city.

"At this point, I'm hoping that the governor has a sense of humanity and the common sense not to write this bill into law," said Lewis, who is planning to attend college in Minnesota. "I am so glad to be leaving soon. I can escape the oppression that my home state wants to put on me."

Supporters say South Dakota's plan is a response to changes in the Obama administration's interpretation of the federal Title IX anti-discrimination law related to education. Federal officials have said that barring students from restrooms that match their gender identity is prohibited under Title IX.

[Lorizael]

I completely fail to understand why bathrooms are gendered at all. (1) It just provides an opportunity for discrimination. (2) Gay people exist, so segregation doesn't prevent creepy bathroom behavior (note: not suggesting gay people are more prone to creepy bathroom behavior than straight people). (3) Not everyone has a cleanly defined gender, even at birth, so are they supposed to [poop] in the woods with bears? (4) Male and female humans are not so biologically distinct that they actually require different equipment to excrete waste. Yes, the females have to be sitting down, but other than that...? So why are different facilities even necessary?

[Unorthodox]

Through my life, it's been my uh, pleasure? to instruct a number of youth in the proper cleaning of the restroom.  Many, many, many teenage to 20ish boys are completely unaware of the little (generally white) box in the girls room.

In an older era, changing tables were exclusive to the girls room as well, not so much anymore.  Also a nursing area is sometimes in the girls' room. 

[vonbach]

I completely fail to understand why bathrooms are gendered at all.

Because men and women are different ask a silly question. There is no such thing
as a "transgender" anyway. You have the gender you're born with.

[Lorizael]

I completely fail to understand why bathrooms are gendered at all.

Because men and women are different ask a silly question.

Yes, and if men excreted waste by vomiting out their mouths and women by evaporation, maybe that would justify having different facilities. As it is, the differences between the sexes don't preclude them from using the same facilities.

There is no such thing
as a "transgender" anyway. You have the gender you're born with.

You are simply incorrect. I won't try to argue this point with you, but I will provide a link to a guy who knows a lot more about the subject than either you or me. If you ever feel the need to challenge your beliefs, you can read it.

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/gender-its-complicated/

This article, too. http://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943

[Buster's Uncle]

I just don't know, man - a fair deal for everyone is the principal I try to apply to public policy issues, but this is bathrooms; I don't want anyone in the room while I go as it is.

Our society has yet to get its head thoroughly straitened out on plain ol' homersexuals -- pragmatically speaking, we're probably decades away from a fair deal for trans people in general, let alone bringing an uncomfortable situation like the pants-down room into it...

[Eadee]

Well, I think each toilet should be separate and have a lockable door, this way a neccesary level of  privacy is provided. I see no need to make whole separate "bathrooms" for different genders. I have no problem if a woman sees me washing my hands neither should a woman have a problem the other way round. Its not like people do not pull up their pants before steping out of the toilet and go wash their hands or am I wrong with that?

And if a place wants to give their customers more privacy they should make those toilets soundproof or install a separate sink inside each of the cells.

[Elok]

The biggest issue I see here is the elevated sexual assault risk from letting roosters in the henhouse--if bathrooms were made completely genderless.  Bathrooms are pretty much ideal for predation, and if I were a woman who had to go into a bathroom alone at a highway rest stop I'd be scared silly by the thought of strange men in there.

Simply allowing transgenders to go wherever doesn't seem like a real risk, as they represent a pathetic fraction of the population.

[Unorthodox]

Well, I think each toilet should be separate and have a lockable door, this way a neccesary level of  privacy is provided. I see no need to make whole separate "bathrooms" for different genders. I have no problem if a woman sees me washing my hands neither should a woman have a problem the other way round. Its not like people do not pull up their pants before steping out of the toilet and go wash their hands or am I wrong with that?

And if a place wants to give their customers more privacy they should make those toilets soundproof or install a separate sink inside each of the cells.

Inefficient use of space, unfortunately.  There are areas around the world implementing outdoor facilities right in the open the lack of space is so severe.  Many men have this aversion to sitting as well, so hygene could become an issue in a hurry. 

[Unorthodox]

The biggest issue I see here is the elevated sexual assault risk from letting roosters in the henhouse--if bathrooms were made completely genderless.  Bathrooms are pretty much ideal for predation, and if I were a woman who had to go into a bathroom alone at a highway rest stop I'd be scared silly by the thought of strange men in there.

Simply allowing transgenders to go wherever doesn't seem like a real risk, as they represent a pathetic fraction of the population.

So creepy guy just says he's a transgender, and still is in the henhouse. 

[Lorizael]

There are a few explicitly gender-neutral bathrooms at my school. Most of the bathrooms are gender-specific. I've used one of the gender-neutral ones a couple of times, but have yet to encounter anyone (opposite sex or otherwise) in the bathroom, so I can't say whether my inclination toward sexual assault is higher. But... the fact that not all the bathrooms are gender-neutral means, if my school wanted to, it could gather data on how often assault occurs in each bathroom.

This isn't as ridiculous as it sounds. I get an email from the school every time there's a reported incident on or near the campus (violent, sexual, or otherwise). Most incidents of sexual impropriety seem to occur on the upper floors of the library. Not in bathrooms on the upper floors of the library--just between the shelves, I guess.

[Unorthodox]

I just don't know, man - a fair deal for everyone is the principal I try to apply to public policy issues, but this is bathrooms; I don't want anyone in the room while I go as it is.

Our society has yet to get its head thoroughly straitened out on plain ol' homersexuals -- pragmatically speaking, we're probably decades away from a fair deal for trans people in general, let alone bringing an uncomfortable situation like the pants-down room into it...

It's a sticky situation, certainly.  I seem to remember a school here installed a non-gender room.  So, you have boys, girls, and a non-gender facility.  I've seen that more frequently in stores as well, a "family" restroom that is non-gender specific.  They are traditional bathrooms: sink, toilet, and a locking door.  I know for a father of a daughter, I appreciated those 'family' rooms when she was still too young to send off on her own. 

Edit: ninja'd by Lorizael confirming gender neutral rooms at schools. 

I've also personally witnessed/stopped an abduction from a truck stop restroom before.  Father trying to juggle 2 kids in the bathroom, one waiting outside the stall while he helped the second, a creepy truck driver tried to offer the waiting kid a toy, then actually grabbed him.  I was in the middle of one of the worst days and needed to release some frustration anyway. 

[Buster's Uncle]

Two areas of fact I find relevant to this:

Trans people have crazy high levels of being assaulted, murdered and committing suicide.

Women, as any woman can tell you, need more facilities than men do.

[Unorthodox]

Women, as any woman can tell you, need more facilities than men do.

I think they'd be happy with as many facilities as men do.  The urinals allow mens rooms to generally have twice the number in the same space as a womens room. 

[Lorizael]

Trans people have crazy high levels of being assaulted, murdered and committing suicide.

For the first two bits, I suspect a lot of that comes down to bigotry that looks like fear of the unknown. The only way past that is exposure, painful though that may be. As for the third bit, well, if you feel accepted by society, you might not feel the need to remove yourself from it. Acceptance will come through exposure.