Religious belief

[Buster's Uncle]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_Kale#Fictional_character_biography

Zhered-Na was a sorceress in Atlantis c. 18,000 BC. Exiled by emperor Kamuu for her prophecy that Atlantis would sink, Zhered-Na was relocated to the mainland Thurian continent where she taught about her god Valka.

The remnants of the cult of Zhered-Na in modern times (a couple of Man-Thing supporting characters who do white magic) are good guys, so I bet Valka was...



FWIW, I took Elok's remarks about religious educations as remarks about that related to your characterization of the video, not precisely an attempt to defend.

[Elok]

My intention was not to defend so much as to explore.  I don't have any love for fundamentalists--to them I'm an idolater--but they're so often a whipping boy that I try to give them a fair hearing.  Devil's Advocate, as Uno says.

[Valka]

I will accept that your position makes sense to you. From my pov I don't really see how any further productive discussion is possible. This is really pushing my buttons in a way that I can't post about here, so it's best I don't.

[Elok]

Understood.  This subject pushes a lot of people's buttons.  It doesn't push mine as hard in part b/c as an Orthodox Christian I'm largely confined to the sidelines; it's generally a fight between liberal-seculars on the one hand and evangelical-fundamentalists on the other.  I disagree with both, and their visions for society, so for me the whole thing is an abstraction.  Of course it's quite different for someone who has a dog in the fight.

[Buster's Uncle]

Interesting thing - my brother, the Reverend Dr. Buster's Daddy, got his PhD from a conservative seminary I don't approve of, and his Master's from a notorious Faldwellite-taken-over republican clown college of a seminary.  And he's rigged the game so that when he spouts something stupid he wouldn't have said before his "religious" education, I don't get to say "Dude, you just spoke in Republican tongues" without picking a fight.

The last time he was home, for a wonder, he did nothing buttholeish to annoy me.  But the two times before that, he went off on red-faced rants at me about the excesses of extremists, like that proves anything but that there are extremists on whatever side I happened to say something somehow supportive of.  I don't know what the name of that logical/debating fallacy is, but I'm sure there's a name, 'cause people escalate that way in arguments all the time, and it's dirty pool, and indeed a fallacy.

One time it was something about the biggest massacre of gentiles ever pinned on Mormons, (as if THAT isn't evil rhetorical bullcrap taken out of the context of the history of gentiles murdering Mormons), and I don't even remember what the topic was.  In February, it was gay marriage, I'm pro because they're citizens and equality, and he was cussing. me. out., his face purple again, talking about some gay club in Buster's school.

Now look here, Rev. Dr. Bigot, A.) I don't want a sexual orientation club of any kind in my 11 year-old perfect niece's school.  B.) Your anecdotal evidence that extremist exist and do extremely wrong things in a suburb of San Francisco means exactly nothing except evidence that extremist exist in San Fran and some do extremely wrong things.  I defend them in no way, and am not going to pay someone who just flew into a rage and cussed me out the respect of trying to figure it out out loud.  It was irrelevant anyway, and I'll ignore the BIGOT insinuation that they won't stop until they've turned your child into a homo.

Jerk.  And he's set it up so I don't get to call him a republican when he pulls unacceptable right-wing crap like that.  That he's gotten used to being the token 'liberal' in a FASCIST room is NO excuse.

Nobody with a lick of sense is interested in defending the bad actions of extremists.  Fallacy, and dirty pool.

[Elok]

As someone in the middle, I feel vaguely grateful that the two opposing camps of extremists are balanced enough to keep it at a stalemate most of the time.  I think the lib/sec extremists will win in the medium to long term, but it's nice when potentially catastrophic social change doesn't barrel right through.

[Buster's Uncle]

That's rather where I am.  We seem to lean in opposite directions, but very often meet in the sensible middle.

We actually need a genuine (decent, thoughtful, courteous, thinks-for-himself) conservative in here.  Sounds like gwillybj - I'll PM a heads-up.

[Buster's Uncle]

gwilly pinged.


Say Elok, I believe you're a fairly recent convert to Orthodox; convert from what?  Would you care to talk about your history and your politics and how the two interact?

You're pretty hardcore, and I respect the heck out of that - even the leaving the 'net for religious observation, which I regret for your absence...


The same goes for everyone - it would inform the conversation in a positive way if we laid our cards on the table about stuff that's already informing the conversation, if out of sight...  I'll try to write up something today on my history with faith and losing it, and what I now believe.

[Lorizael]

As an almost debilitatingly instinctive contrarian, I'm not all that fond of being "in the middle." Being a centrist or what have you just means being somewhere in between the two poles we currently identify as the extremes. That sounds reasonable, except that social change over thousands of years means that past centrists are probably current cretins. So it doesn't seem to me that taking up a position in the middle makes you more likely to be correct about the issues.

Elok already alluded to one counterargument to this, though, which is that a middle position can be more about the pace of change you desire rather than a commitment to a stance between the two current extremes. Although desiring any non-zero pace will likely make you an enemy of at least one half of the extremists.

As to why I don't think middle positions are necessarily correct, I'm going to slightly misquote (for aesthetic reasons) a line that was in che's sig for a very long time, which went something like: "If you're in a boat with a guy who wants to drill a 4 inch hole in the bottom of the boat, a 2 inch hole is not a compromise."

[Lorizael]

(iirc, Elok was raised Orthodox.)

[Buster's Uncle]

You need to make that post about the weaknesses of centrism and compromise to the President, not me.

Thing is, we're nerds, and nerds like things understandable and gravitate to extremes and dichotomy, like all adolescents who have any sense of right and wrong and think for themselves and hopefully grow out of it.  A major aspect of my personal evolution is recognizing my dangerous affinity and owning it, and mitigating against it.  Life is complex and complex things call for nuanced opinions, if you really want to know the truth.

[Yitzi]

The same goes for everyone - it would inform the conversation in a positive way if we laid our cards on the table about stuff that's already informing the conversation, if out of sight...  I'll try to write up something today on my history with faith and losing it, and what I now believe.

Well, I'm a religious Jew, of course, and that informs pretty much everything...but I'm not sure what details should be put on the table.

[Dio]

The same goes for everyone - it would inform the conversation in a positive way if we laid our cards on the table about stuff that's already informing the conversation, if out of sight...  I'll try to write up something today on my history with faith and losing it, and what I now believe.

Well, I'm a religious Jew, of course, and that informs pretty much everything...but I'm not sure what details should be put on the table.

This whole topic is treading on potentially volatile religious grounds.

[Buster's Uncle]

Well sure - this is naked dynamite and we're all flame, which is part of the appeal.

It's in the most chilled-out-but-still-posting forum community I've ever seen, and I'm enjoying the play of diverse ideas; a lot of us are.  I think we can stay cool and make it cool.


Dio?  ISTR you taking Jesus seriously; are you comfortable speaking up?  Everyone here is under my protection.  Honest.


Yitzi, you being hardcore and not-another-on-the-Christian/Atheist spectrum line is what interests me in your input, not least for greater diversity - I'm glad you've seen the thread now.  Keep track and speak up when and how you feel like, and I'm happy.  Always interested in understanding my people better, too.

[Valka]

The same goes for everyone - it would inform the conversation in a positive way if we laid our cards on the table about stuff that's already informing the conversation, if out of sight...  I'll try to write up something today on my history with faith and losing it, and what I now believe.

Well, I'm a religious Jew, of course, and that informs pretty much everything...but I'm not sure what details should be put on the table.

This whole topic is treading on potentially volatile religious grounds.

There are at least three religion/faith-based threads going on right now in the OT forum at CFC. One person has been harassing me to the point where I've put him on ignore. I don't want things to get anywhere near that point here, so there will probably be times when I'll leave so I can calm down.