Religious belief

[Unorthodox]

Why make Hell and use it on people?

Any animal needs a stick and carrot approach to training. 

I find arguments such as these entirely unconvincing. The implication is that God's capacity for creation is somehow subservient to animal psychology, rather than the other way around. God didn't have to create beings who respond in Pavlovian ways, but he did. The alternative is a god who is not all powerful, which usually runs afoul of some doctrinal issues...

A multitude of religions (Christianity included) happen to believe God did, in fact, create creatures that do not fall prey to Pavlovian ways.  Your argument therefore needs to be redirected into why HUMANS were created thus.  And the answer to that is one of the reasons there are so many Christian denominations. 

The Christian answer more or less tends to boil down to the belief Man is here to learn and improve themselves.  In order to improve, you need the capacity to fail, trial and error, reward and punishment.  Heaven and Hell, is nothing more than the ultimate promise of a reward and punishment. 

[Valka]

I am not familiar with "Jesus camp," so I can't say whether I do what they do or not.  We go to church every Sunday and on feast days, read Bible stories sometimes, do morning and evening prayers as a family, etc.  I assume that if you have kids you will raise them to believe your values, same as I do with mine.

I do not mean to imply that all religious people are paragons of reason and fairness, nor that all atheists are the opposite.  Thankfully most atheists are of the apathetic variety, or simply have better things to do.

I just saw the "highlights" video before (about 9 minutes).

Here's the full version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oy_u4U7-cn8

Watch this and tell me it's not child abuse. The adults are blatantly brainwashing those children.

[Buster's Uncle]

NSFW headline, but too funny in the context of this thread to pass up: http://onion.com/1Lz2jlI  ATTN: Uno.

[Elok]

So, as someone who falls on the "a" side of the atheist/theist spectrum, the value-neutral system that I were to teach any potential children of mine (had I not specifically constructed my life to avoid having to do so) is: There are a lot of things about the universe which could be true. Don't assume any of them are true. Instead, build up a reliable way of discovering truths and then apply it to the universe as you see fit.

I don't proclaim that gods aren't real or that they definitively don't exist. From that statement and the above, you might say that I look more or less agnostic. But if someone puts a gun to my head and demands that I declare for atheism or agnosticism, I would eventually concede that atheism is more my cup of tea. The reason is that I'm not on the fence about gods. I don't think we're currently capable of proving that gods exist, and in the mean time I don't see any evidence* that they do. I am open to the possibility that they might, but I don't take them into consideration when deciding things.

Not sure if I've discussed this w/you (and maybe Ken or Moby) on Poly before, but my general policy on this score is that if the truth of the universe is indifferent to me, then I might as well be indifferent to it.  If the atheist rots in the ground just as surely as the most pious churchgoer, I have no reason to be an atheist unless it happens to appeal to me personally, which it doesn't.  Evidence--not that there can really be any for this kind of claim--doesn't enter into it.  It's hard for me to buy any appeal to absolutes of truth, justice, etc. either, if once we've thrown away the absolute of absolutes.  If there is no God (or equivalent thingy like karma), there are only contingent and subjective goods based on my interests or desires, or what happens to be expedient at the moment.  I dislike that thought intensely, so I reject its logical precedents.  Which is not itself "illogical" from my perspective, if there is no profit from knowing the truth.

Actually, I think I have mentioned this to you before.  But hey, I haven't done it on this forum before!

EDIT: Buncle, why does that puppy appear to be humping the air?  It's not just wagging, I'm seeing some pelvic thrust going on too.  Or is it just me?  Should I make a poll of it?

[Unorthodox]

NSFW headline, but too funny in the context of this thread to pass up: http://onion.com/1Lz2jlI  ATTN: Uno.

True dat. 

I more tend to adopt the stance for whoever's getting dogpiled.  That's seen me defending Muslims, Voodoo, Wicca, and a slew of others over the years.  Getting called an Anti-Christ (because there will be more than one) is among my achievements. 

Though, to be perfectly honest and for real truthful, the devil's pretty high on my want-to-meet list when I die, which confuses a LOT of people.  I'm more than happy to debate his merits, as he gets a very bad rap.    (Yeah, I've already bought my one way ticket, remember?  I'm building a snow cone shack, come look me up.)

! No longer available

[Buster's Uncle]

BTW - I speak Wicca well enough to get by with Wiccans.  I think it's weak-minded (pseudo-hippy trendoid, non-conforming in formation) garbage, but managed to live among Wiccans for years and not let on - and they tend to think I'm gifted.  Put the curtain center stage and misdirect, indeed.

Bunch of major daddy-issues children of all ages, in my experience.  If anyone's interested, I have tips for Christian witnessing to Wiccans that ought to be highly effective, considering their basic hostility - Buster's Daddy is a missionary, and I thought of them for him, based on a few conversations I'd had in that tribe about Jesus...

[Buster's Uncle]

EDIT: Buncle, why does that puppy appear to be humping the air?  It's not just wagging, I'm seeing some pelvic thrust going on too.  Or is it just me?  Should I make a poll of it?

It's not just you, make a poll if you think it'll be funny, and I swear the puppy is just wiggling it's butt side-to-side 'cause that tail stub don't wag.

I HAD hoped no one else would think it looked like that, but there's only so much you can do with a one-pixel movement to each side in a very tiny 37x40 figure.  I'll attach the larger version I animated, where it doesn't look that way...

Okay, maybe it does.

[Elok]

"I love you, Master.  I love you *that way*.  Come closer and I WILL LOVE YOU SO HARD."

Re: Wicca, it is very much a modern faith.  There's a phrase, "Moralistic Therapeutic Deism," very popular among social conservatives, to describe a generic sort of faith held by most young Americans that makes very few demands--basically just "be good"--and conceives of God as essentially existing for the believer's convenience, though not in so many words.  Many spiritual-but-not-religious people settle on something MTDish as their personal belief system.  Wicca follows that trend.  It is environmentalist, morally vague, non-exclusionary, and very much individual-oriented to the extent that the believer can make up his or her own pantheon.  The magick stuff is in keeping with a long American tradition of religion and spirituality as a form of self-help.  I wouldn't call it stupid as such--it gives people exactly what they want--it's just a commodified form of religion.

EDIT: I should note that making up one's own pantheon and just shoving whoever in there is a very old and nearly universal practice.  My FIL reports it's rampant all over Vietnam, with people putting Virgin Mary statues right next to their Buddhas and various pagan deities on their household altars.  I've heard that ancient pagans around the Mediterranean did much the same thing.

[Unorthodox]

BTW - I speak Wicca well enough to get by with Wiccans.  I think it's weak-minded (pseudo-hippy trendoid, non-conforming in formation) garbage,

Oh, I think there are a lot of individual followers who fit this description, and a lot of the books would fall here as well, since they are shameless cash ins on troubled teens.  But to discount the entire religion due to this would be the same folly as using the Westboro Baptist church as the measure of Baptists.  There are many who have found a real spirituality through it, which is admirable. 

As you might guess, my chosen holiday attracts droves.  It's too bad the mystics at the street festival were all very busy last weekend.  I occasionally like to mess with them. 

[Buster's Uncle]

I can only speak to what I have experienced, which is 100% accurate for hundreds and hundreds of renfair nerd/hippies over years - they a messed-up bunch of goobers.  Smart, almost always, whatever their formal education, but weak-minded.

"I love you, Master.  I love you *that way*.  Come closer and I WILL LOVE YOU SO HARD."

I have to share your dog riff with my sister, who has had a dog like that and will plotz.


I had a staff I'd carved a Jesus face into the top that I occasionally used in the fair when I took my second character out.

I knew a woman who actually cringed when she saw it in the campground.  SUCH hostility to daddy and HIS religion.  "You have to admit that Jesus was a Great Master" I said for the first time.  (That's how one phrases it in Wiccan.)  Conversation ensued, and she eventually admitted reluctantly that it was so, for all that his followers had definitely gotten it all wrong ever since.

After that, I'd sometimes use it as a conversational topic/gambit to see if I could get an interesting argument going (as if I was the guy of the Onion article, in part), usually getting a fairly quick capitulation, sometimes instant.  Jesus WAS a great Master, after all.  -And that's your opening wedge, should you want to witness to a Wiccan.  Don't beat the Bible, and don't talk about Sin much - they don't believe in that.  But the life words and ministry of Rabbi Ben Elohim?  Get all UP in that sucker, emphasizing the love-your-brother stuff, because they DO believe in THAT.

Now I have to go take a picture of my staff...

[Unorthodox]

You can use a similar tac with a multitude of religions. 

Most being religions of peace, there is a lot of commonality. 

[Valka]

The dog animation doesn't bother me; I've known dogs who get very enthusiastic when they wag their tails - they basically just about wag their whole selves. And given the short little tail this puppy has, he's got to wag something.

[Buster's Uncle]

Yes.

Also yes to Uno.

[Elok]

I'd be cautious about judging people purely on a passing acquaintance at a RenFest.  There's a good chance of any given Wiccan there being slightly or not-so-slightly drunk, and a RenFest tends to attract flakes in general so you've got something of a sampling bias.  I'd also argue that, if by "weak-minded" you mean easily influenced or malleable in personality, there is a possibility that they were simply being agreeable for somebody they didn't know too well.  Furthermore, their faith more or less encourages syncretism AFAICT.  But I only know one Wiccan, an old college friend I keep in touch with via FB, and let me tell you she is opinionated and stubborn as a mule.  Very nice as a person--I think she does some kind of social work therapy for the down and out--but utterly rabid in her beliefs.  Political beliefs, that is; I haven't heard her bring up her religious beliefs at all.

Re: Jesus Camp, I didn't watch the video, Valka, for various reasons.  Looked it up on Wiki instead.  It sounds like the bulk of their teaching methods are unobjectionable--textbooks, songs, and lectures/sermons.  Training children in oratory is actually a fine idea, and should be more common IMO.  The methods seem fine.  It's just that the *content* is totally cuckoo for cocoa-puffs, and hateful to boot.  Are you objecting more to the method or the content?  I say this as someone who's read about the Church of Scientology's indoctrination practices--those make any little kids' camp business seem tame.

[Buster's Uncle]

Elok, I did it for a living; no Weekender, I lived among those people for years.  I haven't claimed that my sample was anything but my sample, and renfairs definitely draw flakes who wanted to play D&D IRL and may not have know any LARPers.

The woman who winced was one of those delightful characters one knows a few of who thinks people who disagree with her are wrong.  The other fuzzy-brained hippies thought she went too far.  "There may be only one Mountain", a much wiser mutual friend commented, "but she can't see that there might be more than one path to the top."