Star Trek

[Buster's Uncle]

I always told you it was better than you thought.  I don't know why everyone but me hated it quite so much.  7 of Vulcan got easier to take, or at least ignore, as it went.

Really hated the 9/11 season, though.

[Mylochka]

I think watching the sleezy/hokey ads for the show predisposed me against it.  Also, it suffered from being stunningly un-ambitious.  The makers really didn't seem concerned about doing anything other than beefing up their franchise.  Didn't really stake out any new territory for this one. 

[Buster's Uncle]

7 of Vulcan sums up what was wrong with the show in a nutshell.  Pieces of Eight was a bad character in the first place; a vulcan clone was an unforgivably Bad Idea, not least because it was too obvious what they were doing.

My point is not about Stewart, but about PICARD as a character.  He's just not as interesting, and is more of the stable backdrop against which the stories are told.  Many episodes where he's the actual main lead suffer since they never defined his character.  A few he does admirable on, yes (like the one where he's captured), but the character as a whole just SUCKS. 

It's all part of the same thing.  Shatner began playing the exact same character as Captian Pike, writing-wise, but being a charming theater veteran and showman, didn't take it as seriously, adding a human, humorous touch that influenced the writing - and frankly, had everything to do with the quality of the show, breaking, as it did, from the tired sci-fi cliche' of the square-jawed ernest leader.  The Captain Kirk of the second season had evolved to fit the actor's style, and was no longer just Pike renamed - all shows go through this. 

So no, I think I'm exactly on track to lay a lot of it on Stewart - that he didn't blow hacky song-and-dance prettyboy Frakes off the screen like he was Al Pachino schooling Keanus Reeves in The Devils Advocate says to me that he wasn't trying.  He's not nearly so good an actor as his reputation would have it, but he is accomplished, thought the gig was beneath him, phoned it in a lot of weeks, and put him with a writing staff out of their dept, you get dull character.  On anything that runs long, the actors generally become the supreme guardians of their characters - this is especailly true of the star.  I think Stewart didn't care enough to fight for Picard; the checks cleared and as long as he didn't humilate himself any more than he did just by showing up, it was all good to him.

That it was a failure of the writing goes without saying - but the writing was so bad I don't expect anything of the writers.  It's sad that Riker grew more as a charcter toward the end of the run than Picard.  I bet I can guess why.

I hate when innerwebs nerdz start specualting about strangers' motivations, and now I'm doing it all over.

[Green1]

I think watching the sleezy/hokey ads for the show predisposed me against it.  Also, it suffered from being stunningly un-ambitious.  The makers really didn't seem concerned about doing anything other than beefing up their franchise.  Didn't really stake out any new territory for this one. 

You must remember, VOY as opposed to DS9 and TNG was meant tot try to get viewers to a Paramount network. The problem was at the time was many cable companies were only offerring that channel as bundled with a lot of worthless channels. Even diehard "faux" trek fans had a tough time justifying increasing a cable bill just for one show, no matter how badass Janeway is.

Hence, the hokey ads you are refering to with 7 of 9 replacing Kes, who was a fairly weak character at least until later. They HAD to sell the show.

[Buster's Uncle]

She's talking about Quantum Star Track, not Star Track: Lost In Space...

She kinda half-liked the latter, notwithstanding that girls hated Janeway at first, and Kes was cool, while that Borg Stripper was dumb.

[Buster's Uncle]

...In fact, it's a pity they didn't just buy Jennifer Lien a padded bra.  She was really rocking the body suits before they got rid of her, and looked good with non-hideous hair.  It would have spared us a lot of ill-considered nonsense about the Borg, too...

Has anyone ever seen my four ST SMAC(X) factions?

[Mylochka]

Yes, I was talking about ENT, but I think the point applies there as well.  The "Hey! Look at the Jolene Blalock body parts you get to see this week!" ad campaign did not appeal to me -- but since I was not an 18-25 year old male, I guess they didn't care whether I watched or not.

[Buster's Uncle]

Kes with long hair in a body suit would have worked just fine - they could easily have worked in the stupid Borg stuff, too - just let them assimilate her for an episode, and go on from there the same way they did, only it's Kes.  Everybody liked Kes.

And in that episode where she returned?  I don't know what was really going on, but that wasn't Kes.

[Unorthodox]

It's all part of the same thing.  Shatner began playing the exact same character as Captian Pike, writing-wise, but being a charming theater veteran and showman, didn't take it as seriously, adding a human, humorous touch that influenced the writing - and frankly, had everything to do with the quality of the show, breaking, as it did, from the tired sci-fi cliche' of the square-jawed ernest leader.  The Captain Kirk of the second season had evolved to fit the actor's style, and was no longer just Pike renamed - all shows go through this. 

So no, I think I'm exactly on track to lay a lot of it on Stewart - that he didn't blow hacky song-and-dance prettyboy Frakes off the screen like he was Al Pachino schooling Keanus Reeves in The Devils Advocate says to me that he wasn't trying.  He's not nearly so good an actor as his reputation would have it, but he is accomplished, thought the gig was beneath him, phoned it in a lot of weeks, and put him with a writing staff out of their dept, you get dull character.  On anything that runs long, the actors generally become the supreme guardians of their characters - this is especailly true of the star.  I think Stewart didn't care enough to fight for Picard; the checks cleared and as long as he didn't humilate himself any more than he did just by showing up, it was all good to him.

That it was a failure of the writing goes without saying - but the writing was so bad I don't expect anything of the writers.  It's sad that Riker grew more as a charcter toward the end of the run than Picard.  I bet I can guess why.

I hate when innerwebs nerdz start specualting about strangers' motivations, and now I'm doing it all over.

Kirk was given Flash Gordon as a template, yes, and it evolved from there.  A good, simple, heroic template on which to build. 

WHAT the HELL was Picard given as a template? Horatio Hornblower.  I'm sorry introspective self doubting seasick captains might make good reading, it just doesn't translate to serial television well.  At ALL.  I don't care what actor you want to shove in there. 

Riker was given the Gordon template (which went largely wasted)

[Buster's Uncle]

Sorry, wrong.  Kirk was Horatio Hornblower -Roddenberry talked about it a lot- filtered through Lesley Nielsen's captain in Forbidden Planet and evolved from there.

Picard was Kirk, gotten old, and turned out not to be, for all their trying to claim John-Luke use to be a hellrake. 

TNG was ST:TMP with the serial numbers filed off.  Riker was Decker - And he was, only not as good as when Steven Collins did it.  Troi was Illia - surely you spot the parallel classical allusions, the parallel relationship and background.  Worf was Chekov, down to being raised by Russians and the security job he had in the movie.  Geordi was Sulu, starting as helmsman, always amiable and on the job.  Data sat in for Xon, the vulcan they were going to replace Spock with if The Motion Picture had instead been Star Trek Phase II, the TV series, as was planned.  Yar began as a rip-off of that wierdly hot latino lady marine in Aliens, before they cast that Bing Crosby girl instead.

They recycled 10 year-old scripts and story pitches for a while, with the second season opener being one I'd actually read in outline in a book about the aborted Phase II, with Illia having a weird space pregnancy/space baby. 

Trust me, man; my Trek knowlege is hardcore, and Mylochka can find the relevant documentation in a half hour or less, should our word not be good enough - only the Forbidden Planet stuff hasn't been openly admited to everywhere for a very long time, and just watch Forbidden Planet and tell me that isn't Captain Pike in a stupid-looking uniform.  (Also, tell me that the story set-up wasn't rehashed in several episodes.)


The actor in the A&E Hornblower movies was quite good.

[Unorthodox]

Gene WANTED Kirk to be hornblower, NBC wanted to emphasize the character's more heroic aspects so you got more Flash Gordon.

Picard didn't get the network meddling. 


I would have actually had to have WATCHED the old movies to understand your other points.  I'm mostly a second hand trek I wouldn't even say 'fan'.  hEt is a hardcore trekkie, so I've been required to sit through it all with her...

I've seen the movies starting from Generations...

First Contact, I would watch again, even.  Mostly for the evil borg chick and general horror movie feel. 

[Buster's Uncle]

...He had a lot more freedom on TNG, yes, and resoundingly proved that he's one of those guys like George Lucas who does much MUCH better work when compromise is forced upon him and he can't get carried away - but TNG wasn't very Gene at all after the horrific first season, and none whatsoever four years in - they'd have pushed him out if he hadn't gotten sick.  I think they did before, actually, though official accounts didn't admit it; he'd lost whatever touch he ever had that wasn't really Gene Coon, Bob Justman, Dorthy Fontana, etc.


Now Luke Skywalker was - actually Flash Gordon's son.  Flash went bad, you see - something Ming did to him...

[Buster's Uncle]

You're going to have to call hEt in - from what you say, she'll get the names and references.

[Unorthodox]

Now Luke Skywalker was - actually Flash Gordon's son.  Flash went bad, you see - something Ming did to him...

Yeah, now STAR WARS, I'm enough of a geek that I actually have all three radio dramas on cassette.  Episode 1 made a lot more sense having that background (especially the episode 4 radio drama which has entire plot elements and characters that were cut from the movie).  If we could cut out the ewoks and gungans, the series as a whole wouldn't be so crappy. 

As it is, I'm relegated to being an Indiana Jones nerd.  And by extension, Gunga Din, which has to be viewed as a companion movie.  Temple of Doom is essentially Gunga Din 2, and technically is the 'first' movie since it's timeline is before Raiders.     

 

[Buster's Uncle]

Well now, I love me some Star Wars - my only problem with SW is think Lucas is a vile turd, and so are too many fans.  It's the dumping on Trek that gets my goat; we don't have to be partisans, like it's politics or something's at stake.  That's stupid.

Lucas actually tried to get the rights to straight-up do Flash Gordon, before he had to turn to his own heavily-influenced material...

So talk about Star Wars is pretty welcome here, until such time as it might take off and need its own thread.  Raiders is more of a genre stretch, but we're, honestly, talking about escapist adventure stories in all cases, so what the heck.  Start new threads, post in this one - it's all good.

"No time for love now, Dr. Jones!"