Is the Big Bang in the Bible?

[Buster's Uncle]

Domai in the last six, then, I believe.

[Geo]

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[Buster's Uncle]

  b.06-17-2011

Remember, if two spaceships pass each other moving at 0.2c each, then each will see the other's time as passing slower than its own.

I do not recall ever knowing that.  Tough to wrap my noodle around, logically, too.

Y'know, I ask what IS space and what IS motion for the purposes of special relativity because --- how does the local space-time in our .1C ship measure what's going on when motion's everywhere and all relative and the markers are scant in empty space and adjust the internal space-time tau appropriately?  I seriously see a problem there that seems to demand some universal substrate bookkeeping to work, for all that the very problem is extremely difficult to even articulate.

[Yitzi]

b.06-17-2011

Remember, if two spaceships pass each other moving at 0.2c each, then each will see the other's time as passing slower than its own.

I do not recall ever knowing that.  Tough to wrap my noodle around, logically, too.

Y'know, I ask what IS space and what IS motion for the purposes of special relativity because --- how does the local space-time in our .1C ship measure what's going on when motion's everywhere and all relative and the markers are scant in empty space and adjust the internal space-time tau appropriately?  I seriously see a problem there that seems to demand some universal substrate bookkeeping to work, for all that the very problem is extremely difficult to even articulate.

It doesn't require bookkeeping any more than "if I take a wedge that, when lying flat on the table, has slope 1/sqrt(3), and another wedge like it, and put one leaning against the other, the upper edge of the upper wedge will have slope sqrt(3)".  (Slope 1/sqrt(3) corresponds to 30 degrees, and slope sqrt(3) corresponds to 60 degrees.)

As for how it measures what's going on in other places: By observing light that reaches it from those other places.

If you can turn your objections into a physical paradox (i.e. think of it one way and one thing should be seen, but from another perspective another thing should be seen), that might help clarify them.

[Buster's Uncle]

[Buster's Uncle]

...I don't buy that about observing light for a second.  SOMEthing's carrying 'Universal Positioning System' data between FORs, but I doubt it's photons...

I do not deny the possibility of the hand of the Architect at work here, but cannot believe He still does it manually with so many elegant automatic systems everywhere comprising Creation.

Also?  My brain turns off at too many numbers - the wedges are a blur to me.  Can you try again with less maths?

[Yitzi]

...I don't buy that about observing light for a second.  SOMEthing's carrying 'Universal Positioning System' data between FORs, but I doubt it's photons...

Well, it's certainly not faster than photons.  But what do you mean by "'universal positioning system' data"?

Also?  My brain turns off at too many numbers - the wedges are a blur to me.  Can you try again with less maths?

Ok...Think of a speed as a sort of slope.  If you have two sloped objects, you can stack one on top of the other, and the composite will have a slope as well, and the new slope can be calculated from the old ones.  But no extraneous "bookkeeping" is needed to determine that new slope; it arising naturally from the geometry.

[Buster's Uncle]

UPS - I just named the hypothetical bookkeeping for the purposes of the discussion.

And okay; your second try sounds a lot like the rubber-sheet analogy model of gravity curving space-time - okay.  I'm certainly familiar with that one.  Hmmm.  I have a thought related to this whole line of inquiry that I need time before I'm ready to try to articulate; it's a blue-sky doozy.

[Buster's Uncle]

Lori!

[Buster's Uncle]

Bumped for relevance to Religion & Belief thread...

[Buster's Uncle]

Lorizael, PLEASE.

Thoughts on UPS substrate relativistic bookkeeping?

[Lorizael]

I haven't been following this conversation very closely, and I'm too lazy to read all the way back through, but I agree with Yitzi that there does not need to be a universal positioning system in order for relativity to work.

An analogy that kind of builds off of Yitzi's analogy (at least in my head) is... take a piece of paper and hold it so that you're looking directly at it. That's 8.5x11 inches you have to work with. To someone looking at that paper from a different angle, however, the piece of paper has different dimensions. It might appear narrower, for example. However, it's not just that the paper appears narrower. From that different angle, the paper actually has a smaller surface area with which to interact. This is part of how wings work, by adjusting the surface area that presents at a particular angle in order to catch more or less air.

And what relativity tells us is that no frame of reference (in this case, different viewing angles of a piece of paper) is privileged. But more to the point, the paper simply exists, and its different properties relative to different observers don't need to be encoded anywhere in the universe. They arise plainly out of interaction with that paper (which Yitzi mentions re: photons).

When we talk about special relativity, the properties of interest are velocity, mass, momentum, etc., but all that special relativity is telling us is that these properties take on different values depending on what direction you're looking from, just like apparent surface area. The why has to do with the constancy of the speed of light, which is apparently just as fundamental to the universe as something like the geometry which governs surface area based on viewing angle.

[Buster's Uncle]

If you've read from here http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=7876.msg73819#msg73819 you're caught up enough for me.

That's pretty clear and a good explanation.

I need time for my sub/semi conscious to digest before I respond further, 'cause I don't think I'm quite satisfied yet, but I need to put my finger on it. 

[Buster's Uncle]

Ancient Galaxy Is Most Distant Ever Found

...Speaking of the oldest and fastest currently observed...

---

Now as to your answer, Lori, it addresses the appearance to an outside observer fine, but I don't think it answers my question; motion is relative, so what's the frame of reference for the Unity to determine relativistic effects/

[Yitzi]

Ancient Galaxy Is Most Distant Ever Found

...Speaking of the oldest and fastest currently observed...

---

Now as to your answer, Lori, it addresses the appearance to an outside observer fine, but I don't think it answers my question; motion is relative, so what's the frame of reference for the Unity to determine relativistic effects/

The outside observer.  The extent of relativistic effects depends on whose observing; if I'm on the Unity and you're on Earth, I see you having time dilation just like you see me having time dilation.