Changes to the Social Engineering models

[vonbach]

I preferred Future SEs that were more about what the human species might evolve into rather than how we might live. As in a lot of ways Cybernetic/Eudaimonic/Thought Control mirror Police State/Democracy/Fundamentalist very heavily...just more extreme

Instead perhaps:
1) Man/Machine - similar to Cybernetic but more intertwined at the nanotech level not just devices
2) Man/Chiron - bioengineered hybrids made of human and Chiron DNA
3) Man/??? - Ubermencsh in the Nietzche sense, human genome edited to remove our flaws

Not sure the best names for these. A fourth could be AI takeover but if that happens humanity is done for, and there's not a lot of lore for that.

I flat out lifted the names for the future societies from Beyond Earth. In that game they are called affinities.
Supremacy is the embrace of cybernetics and machines to overcome the environment and eventually achieve a digital ascension.
Purity wants to preserve and improve on mankind and make the planet a new earth.
Harmony is adapting to the planet. I also like the idea of a softer take on a authoritarian state where people are conformist.
Much like the society in Demolition man.

I was trying to get away from specific government and  economic types and use more generic terms.
Autarky for excample is a term for the idea of a self sufficient economy while regulated is just that a regulated economy.   
Right now I'm working on what values to give everything. I was going to give everything three bonuses.
Except for the future societies will get six each. No penalties and I set every faction to having  an interest in growth.

The goal is to  make things easier for the AI.

[Nexii]

Yea really all of these 3 paths are the same - machine, human, planet-like. I think to some extent the bonuses/penalties they gave in the stock game were nonsensical and made it harder to conceptualize. I'd have to rethink what each should give

[vonbach]

Yea really all of these 3 paths are the same - machine, human, planet-like. I think to some extent the bonuses/penalties they gave in the stock game were nonsensical and made it harder to conceptualize. I'd have to rethink what each should give

The one that is changed the most is Harmony in the thought control spot.
This is what I'm working on at the moment.
Some have more or less than  their allotted allowance at my discretion.
Mostly because I think both Probe and Planet have less value and others more.
Free Market and Autarky I'm not sure about. I might do something with Progressive as well.
I'm tempted to add +Growth in Authotarian somewhere.


Authotarian,     Chaos,   ++POLICE, +SUPPORT, +PROBE
Progressive,     InfNet,  ++EFFIC, +GROWTH
Traditionalist,  Psych,   ++GROWTH, +MORALE
Simple,          None,    None
Free Market,     IndEcon, ++ECONOMY,
Regulated,       PlaNets, +ECONOMY, +GROWTH, +EFFIC
Autarky,         DocFlex, +PLANET, +EFFIC, +ECONOMY
Survival,        None,
Might,           DocLoy,  +MORALE, ++SUPPORT,
Knowledge,       Integ,   +EFFIC, +RESEARCH,
Prosperity,      IndAuto, +ECONOMY, +EFFIC
None,            None,
Supremacy,       Algor,   ++RESEARCH,  ++EFFIC, ++PROBE,
Purity,          EnvEcon, ++GROWTH, +ECONOMY, ++EFFIC, +INDUSTRY
Harmony,         PlaEcon, ++POLICE, ++MORALE, ++PLANET, ++EFFIC

[Nexii]

PLANET is kind of like INDUSTRY. If you get enough of it, it becomes very powerful. Since it's a multiplier with morale/lifecycle.

PROBE, yea...it's not so relevant. It needed to like reduce MC costs offensively, or alter the probe team options available. Something like that would be a lot of work to mod I'm sure. +3 PROBE is a nice to have though for the MC immunity.

I'd say those SEs make more sense. I'll do something kind of similar... penalties take some more thought. Probably Cybernetic gets -GROWTH (virtual society meets less for procreation), Eudaimonic keeps -MORALE (more from perspective of evolving past violent tendencies), Thought Control gets -RESEARCH (due to collective groupthink).

[vonbach]

PLANET is kind of like INDUSTRY. If you get enough of it, it becomes very powerful. Since it's a multiplier with morale/lifecycle.

Interesting. I'll keep that in mind.

PROBE, yea...it's not so relevant. It needed to like reduce MC costs offensively, or alter the probe team options available. Something like that would be a lot of work to mod I'm sure. +3 PROBE is a nice to have though for the MC immunity.

Yeah probe just never impressed me. Its tempting to add +2 Probe to might and get it over with.

I'd say those SEs make more sense. I'll do something kind of similar... penalties take some more thought. Probably Cybernetic gets -GROWTH (virtual society meets less for procreation), Eudaimonic keeps -MORALE (more from perspective of evolving past violent tendencies), Thought Control gets -RESEARCH (due to collective groupthink).

I'm holding off on penalties for my mod to help out the AI. Growth penalties make a lot of sense lore wise but the problem is the AI hates Growth penalties. Thought Control/Harmony a research penalty is exactly what I'd pick. For eudaemonic/purity I'd probably give them morale or planet.

Honestly the Future societies are my lowest priority. The game is usually over by then. I'm trying to buff the AI by adding bonuses so their cities grow beyond 3 or 4 and actually make them a challenge so I don't steamroll them. Also I don't want to simply jack up the difficulty where the AI cheats.

[bvanevery]

YI think to some extent the bonuses/penalties they gave in the stock game were nonsensical and made it harder to conceptualize.

Yep.  My Future Societies evolved over time.  The 1st thing that happened is I stopped making them late game "wonderful bonuses".  Like at the very end of the tech tree, where you don't really need them anyways.  They became more late midgame things, and more balanced / not overpowered compared to other SE choices.  It was expected that you'd play a lot of the game with 4 societal choices, not just 3.

I went through a long evolution of making my Explore Discover Build Conquer categories more distinct.  Explore especially became much more focused on Gaian style mindworm techs as the game progressed.  Harder to just obtain that stuff unless you were explicitly pursuing it.  One day I realized, that Eudaimonic had evolved to become my "Planet friendly endgame" category.  Not Cybernetic.

Then I realized there was nothing about sticking machine implants into your brain and body, that should make it easier to talk to Planet in any way at all.  The way of the machine, is not the way of Planet.  It's inorganic.  Aki Zeta-5 is not a mindworm whisperer.

I made Cybernetic into my anti-Planet future society category.  A Morganic cyberpunk future where everyone's making lotsa cash and knocking all the fungal towers out of the way, to make more Blade Runner urban pyramids and stuff.

I also made Miriam anti-Cybernetic instead of anti-Knowledge.  Since grousing about cyborgs is actually in the videos.

[vonbach]

Like at the very end of the tech tree, where you don't really need them anyways

Thats why I  moved them up because I actually wanted to  play with them. Same with grav tanks.

I also made Miriam anti-Cybernetic instead of anti-Knowledge.  Since grousing about cyborgs is actually in the videos.

Cybernetics of that sort are forbidden in the Bible actually. But then so are women preachers.

[Nexii]

Technology is used to communicate with Planet in the lore. But I do agree it's a stretch to say Cybernetic would get +PLANET. One doesn't have to become half-machine to use a machine.

If anything I kind of feel Thought Control might get the +PLANET modifier. It's a sort of PSI/neurotransmitter control. And TC society is more like a singular collective much like Planet.

Eudaimonic strikes me as more of an individualistic utopia.

TC of course could get PROBE too, but it's kind of useless.

Cybernetic,      DigSent, ++RESEARCH, ++EFFIC,    ++SUPPORT,  --GROWTH
Eudaimonic,      Eudaim,  ++GROWTH,   ++ECONOMY,  ++INDUSTRY, --MORALE
Thought Control, WillPow, ++POLICE,   ++MORALE,   ++PLANET,   --RESEARCH

[vonbach]

Technology is used to communicate with Planet in the lore. But I do agree it's a stretch to say Cybernetic would get +PLANET. One doesn't have to become half-machine to use a machine.

If anything I kind of feel Thought Control might get the +PLANET modifier. It's a sort of PSI/neurotransmitter control. And TC society is more like a singular collective much like Planet.

Eudaimonic strikes me as more of an individualistic utopia.

TC of course could get PROBE too, but it's kind of useless.

Cybernetic,      DigSent, ++RESEARCH, ++EFFIC,    ++SUPPORT,  --GROWTH
Eudaimonic,      Eudaim,  ++GROWTH,   ++ECONOMY,  ++INDUSTRY, --MORALE
Thought Control, WillPow, ++POLICE,   ++MORALE,   ++PLANET,   --RESEARCH

Thats actually not bad. I've never been that fond of cybernetic getting planet or having probe penalties. If anything they should be spectacular at probe attacks. Thought control still seems  a little weak but always was.

[Nexii]

MORALE can be made more relevant with better defense mods and cheaper armor costing. The closer battles are the more that it matters. But yea in the stock game the main benefit was to just get extra movement at elite and otherwise, attacker usually smashed defender, both going swarms of unarmored rovers (or air units once available).

Cyber is described very differently in the SE description compared to the scriptx dialogues for interfaction diplomacy. By the SE description it sounds more like an AI takeover leaving humanity sidelined. But the scriptx dialogues describe Cybernetic more as man/machine hybridization to an extreme level. I favor the latter as it seems more realistic and jiving better with much of the tech lore such as Mind-Machine Interface. So going that way yea I can also agree with -PLANET for Cybernetic, it is trending hard against the biological. And yea +PROBE also makes sense.

[bvanevery]

Eudaimonic strikes me as more of an individualistic utopia.

The scripted dialogue is sorta written like that.  But if you squint a little, when Cha Dawn is uttering it instead of Domai, it almost works.  Actually nobody talks about the socialist worker utopia stuff unless they're castigating your Eudaimonic society.  It could almost be about Planet.

It's a way better fit, than listening to Cha Dawn prattle about God.  When I had him as Fundamentalist / Extremist, that proved intolerable.  I had to put Miriam back into her proper God role.

Domai as a straight up hardcore Socialist, is better than when he was babbling about Eudaimonic.  He's not Eudaimonic, he's Socialist.  Belligerently so.  A real jerk in my mod now, because frankly a lot of factions don't have any use for early Socialism.  It's a deliberately not all that compelling category.  It does tend to fit with Police State though, since you're not making a bunch of money from that anyways.

[vonbach]

Domai as a straight up hardcore Socialist, is better than when he was babbling about Eudaimonic.  He's not Eudaimonic, he's Socialist.  Belligerently so.  A real jerk in my mod now, because frankly a lot of factions don't have any use for early Socialism.  It's a deliberately not all that compelling category.  It does tend to fit with Police State though, since you're not making a bunch of money from that anyways.

Domai actually cares about workers thats why the last thing he would ever want is Communism. I always liked Eudaimonic as a focus for him in particular. He wants to build a world where everyone if free to work toward their highest potential. Not a state where workers are oppressed.

[bvanevery]

Socialism has many strains, and historical state goon squad Communism ala the USSR / Stalinism isn't the only kind of Socialism out there.  Domai wants "good Socialism" just fine.  He's clearly deeply into Workerism in the original game lore, beyond all else.  Pointedly, he's anti-intelligentsia.  Has that in common with historical Communist norms, at least during the initial revolutionary periods.  State funding for the sciences does pick up in the cold war period.

It's worth remembering that the goon squaddery the USSR actually got, was delivered by things like, an ice pick to the back of Trotsky's head.  There are all those Mensheviks that the Bolsheviks liquidated.

[vonbach]

Socialism has many strains, and historical state goon squad Communism ala the USSR / Stalinism isn't the only kind of Socialism out there.  Domai wants "good Socialism" just fine.

Theres no such thing as "good" communism. It's straight up evil. Wanting to help workers does not make you a Communist.
Communism isn't a government system its  a propaganda tactic. Communists promise a lot of things but deliver only oppression.
Workers to them means party workers actual working people are cattle to them.
In any case we can agree to disagree.

I bought a rhoomba some time ago. My cat does not like my new mechanical turtle.
I went on  a keto diet had a lot of success with it.

[bvanevery]

Domai wants "good Socialism" just fine.

Theres no such thing as "good" communism.

You of course will have your opinion.  I notice you changed the word, from Socialism to Communism.

It's straight up evil.

I honestly think for you, it's a brand identity.  Whatever you want to call evil.  It doesn't have a lot to do with the breadth of political movements that have fallen under the label "Socialism".  You can read about most of them on Wikipedia.

I bought a rhoomba some time ago. My cat does not like my new mechanical turtle.
I went on  a keto diet had a lot of success with it.

Good to know!