Changes to the Social Engineering models

[Nexii]

FM definitely is less powerful when there's other 2 ECON options. The options look balanced, there are quite a few to pick from. Does the high ECON lead to fast games? Or do you play with tech stagnation?

[vonbach]

FM definitely is less powerful when there's other 2 ECON options. The options look balanced, there are quite a few to pick from. Does the high ECON lead to fast games? Or do you play with tech stagnation?

Well I play on huge or larger maps. I'm tempted to give FM something else besides EFFIC like +IND but I think that would be a bit OP especially with the relatively light penalties.
As for the high Econ options it couldn't hurt the AI. I might already have tech stagnation on.

[vonbach]

I'm having a weird issue my unity wreckage isn't giving anything out anymore. Its not the map either.

[Nexii]

I haven't seen that bug before.

[vonbach]

I haven't seen that bug before.

I think its what happens when you put on "pods only near landing sights" option. It must shut off the unity ruins benefits.
I normally never play like that.

[Nexii]

Ah yea I suppose the Unity would be considered a pod, lol. Probably something they overlooked, as long as that landmark is enabled it should work.

[Nexii]

Tweaking all around. More of a progression future SE set, Cyber comes mid game. TC mid-late, Eud late. Eud got buffed because of this. It wouldn't have been that great with Green economics, now it is. Democracy becomes more pacifist. Harder to get MC immune now but that also makes TC better. Arguably a nerf to Cybernetic, though -3 PROBE and -1 GROWTH are close.

Politics, Economics, Values, Future Society
Frontier,        None,    None
Police State,    DocLoy,  ++POLICE, +PROBE, +SUPPORT, +EFFIC
Democratic,      EthCalc, +++++EFFIC, +RESEARCH, ----POLICE
Fundamentalist,  Psych,   ++GROWTH, ++EFFIC, --RESEARCH
Simple,          None,    None
Free Market,     IndEcon, ++ECONOMY, --MORALE, ---PLANET
Planned,         PlaNets, ++INDUSTRY, +POLICE, --PLANET 
Green,           CentEmp, ++PLANET, ++SUPPORT, --ECONOMY
Survival,        None,
Power,           AdapDoc, ++MORALE, +PROBE, -EFFIC
Knowledge,       Integ,   ++RESEARCH, +EFFIC, -POLICE
Wealth,          IndAuto, ++GROWTH, --PROBE
None,            None,
Cybernetic,      MindMac, ++INDUSTRY, ++SUPPORT, ++EFFIC, -GROWTH
Eudaimonic,      Eudaim,  ++ECONOMY, ++RESEARCH, ++GROWTH, ++PLANET
Thought Control, CentPsi, ++POLICE, ++PROBE, ++MORALE, ---RESEARCH

[vonbach]

Interesting. This is what I'm working on now. What do you think?
Police State,    Chaos,  ++POLICE, ++PROBE, +SUPPORT, -GROWTH
Democratic,      InfNet,  ++EFFIC, +ECONOMY, --POLICE
Fundamentalist,  Psych,   ++GROWTH, +EFFIC, +MORALE, -RESEARCH
Simple,          None,    None
Free Market,     IndEcon, ++ECONOMY, ++EFFIC, ---PLANET
Planned,         PlaNets, +ECONOMY, +SUPPORT, +POLICE, -GROWTH
Green,           DocFlex, +ECONOMY, ++EFFIC, ++PLANET, -SUPPORT
Survival,        None,
Power,           DocLoy, ++MORALE, +POLICE, +SUPPORT, -GROWTH
Knowledge,       Integ,   ++RESEARCH, +EFFIC, -POLICE, --PROBE
Wealth,          IndAuto, ++EFFIC,  +ECONOMY,  --MORALE, --POLICE
None,            None,
Cybernetic,      Algor,   ++RESEARCH,  +EFFIC, --POLICE
Eudaimonic,      EnvEcon, ++GROWTH, +ECONOMY, +EFFIC, -PROBE, -MORALE
Thought Control, PlaEcon, ++POLICE, +SUPPORT, ++PROBE, +INDUSTRY, --RESEARCH


I was thinking of moving green to knowledge and making green economics Autarky and changing it like this.
Autarky +2GROWTH +ECON -EFFIC
Green +2 PLANET +2 EFFIC +1 RESEARCH -INDUSTRY

[Nexii]

Fund and Power might be a little better than the others. Lots of economy options but for growth there's only Fund till Eud. Economy options I like the idea of, but for me it would require reworking Green. The downside of a -economy choice then is a lot worse.

[vonbach]

Fund and Power might be a little better than the others.

Power really doesn't have that good of bonuses though all of them can be negated with unit upgrades.
Fund still has the research penalty for the growth. I might add a point of -probe.

Economy options I like the idea of, but for me it would require reworking Green

Support fits more or less so does industry but thats a bit harsh.
The other idea is to add a plus growth plus economy  in the place of green
and move green to values. Or keep green as economy and add growth instead of effic.
maybe ++pla ++growth +econ -industry.

Oh one thing i found out with Bvanevery's clean syth units you can keep the clean reactor very early in the game by simply using that unit as a template.
Allowing you to use clean units from the start.

[Nexii]

Clean from the start negates any need for the SUPPORT SE ever. My philosophy is to try to provide more choice rather than less. 

Anyways providing a few options to get GROWTH is good. Green or Wealth make the most sense to me. A lot will depend whether you want all factions to be able to boom or not. Those with aversions to your growth options will have a harder time.

[vonbach]

Clean from the start negates any need for the SUPPORT SE ever. My philosophy is to try to provide more choice rather than less. 

It's more for the AI than anything else. To keep it from clogging its entire support with units.
Thats why I kept it.

Anyways providing a few options to get GROWTH is good. Green or Wealth make the most sense to me.

I'm tempted to add a few more just because. Like maybe a point of Growth to another in the economic tier.
Wealth would be an idea but you'd have the AI picking all three.

[Nexii]

Yea could always give all AI factions +3 SUPPORT too haha. There was that old idea, where you boost up the factions you play against.

Generally the AI won't pick options that tank MORALE. Only if it gets them +2 ECONOMY and it's not war time. Sometimes I noted it will prefer RESEARCH over MORALE if it is at +2 ECONOMY.

[vonbach]

Yea could always give all AI factions +3 SUPPORT too haha. There was that old idea, where you boost up the factions you play against.

Don't laugh thats actually an idea. +2 support across the board isn't a bad idea considering the way the AI spams units.

Generally the AI won't pick options that tank MORALE. Only if it gets them +2 ECONOMY and it's not war time. Sometimes I noted it will prefer RESEARCH over MORALE if it is at +2 ECONOMY.

Thats nice to know. I know the AI likes morale for some reason so I was light on the morale penalties.

[bvanevery]

Clean from the start negates any need for the SUPPORT SE ever.

False.  It takes longer to produce a Clean unit.  When a Clean unit gets killed, it's more of a production loss, due to its embedded cost.  Currently I have Clean units as 50% longer to produce.  I can go to 100%.  I have not received enough player feedback to feel a need to do it.

My philosophy is to try to provide more choice rather than less. 

Your philosophy should be to examine the consequences of different game design decisions, in excruciating detail, before passing judgment.

Yea could always give all AI factions +3 SUPPORT too haha.

There is no technical means to accomplish this for the AI only, in a *.txt only mod.

You can do anything you like in a binary mod.  Such mods are also technically illegal to distribute.  It isn't stopping you or the other binary modders, but I intend to make money selling games in a few years.  With my mod as an advertizement for my design skill.  Hopefully drum up some customers.  So the legality of what can be technically accomplished, is more important to me, than perhaps to you.  I don't want my future business interest in selling possibly "a SMAC-like game" to have any legal exposure.

Scient's OpenSMACX project could end that pickle someday, maybe.  Not sure what the legalities of reverse engineering a binary by decompiling it are, in various jurisdictions.  But the point is moot because the project won't finish in a timeframe that matters to my own commercial development.  *.txt modding is what I can legally put in front of a player as a complete $0 product now.

In newer work, SUPPORT simply wouldn't be done.  It's not a good game mechanic.  The later Civ titles dumped it.  Units just cost money to support, not minerals.