Changes to the Social Engineering models

[Nexii]

One thing about EFFIC is that it has strong diminishing returns. And Creches give +2 it seems (help text says 1 and 2 in different places). So in the set you can already get to +6 with Demo + Creche. Not counting AI Controlled it comes very late when having a huge empire could make the EFFIC better.

In other words Green with a lot of EFFIC just wouldn't be good with Democratic and probably even Fundamentalism. I kind of want to avoid that. You'll see this is why when non-Green Agenda factions do pick Green it's almost always with Police State.

The question really is what other than PLANET fits Green? I may just remove the -INDUSTRY since not much other than TALENT or RESEARCH fits. It's plenty good with the INDUSTRY penalty gone, Planned and FM have significant downsides. -INDUSTRY is almost like -EFFIC, you can make it work but the bonuses have to be really good

[vonbach]

The problem is Planet ratings aren't that good. I more or less consider +planet ratings "free" +2 effic and +2 planet with +talent or research isn't that bad really.
I like to give green +2 growth and call it autarky. Currently its not that bad I just think like police state it needs a little boost.
I'd give them +2 planet +2 effic and maybe +1 growth. Maybe +1effic +2 growth. Industry is a serious penalty.

[Nexii]

+2 GROWTH is a lot for no penalty, it'd have to get the minus INDUSTRY. +2 GROWTH +2 PLANET -1 INDUSTRY would put it about par with the other economics. Though that is giving out GROWTH a lot, +2 GROWTH at all 4 tiers. And it lets all factions boom, I balanced a bunch like University/CyCon around whether they can or not (even though the AI is sort of inconsistent). It gives some variety. A thought was to make Prosperity more money focused, an alternative FM: +2 ECON, +1 TALENT / -3 MORALE

Yea in the stock game PLANET is pretty bad. I forgot to note I did make native life a bit better. Mind worms move at speed 2, Isles at Cruiser speed 8, Sealurks the same. Costs reduced slightly as well. Having PLANET help PSI defense is a nice bonus too. I'll probably just keep Green as it is. Mild benefits and no real downside like FM and Planned. EFFIC on Green is a bit of a stretch, it doesn't bring justice. For that matter it might not make sense as Gaia's benefit...

I'm also unsure whether my AI controlled and Utopian benefits make sense. Utopias are often kind of post-currency, but maybe the +2 ECON does represent the abundance of post-scarcity economy. EFFIC seems to fit Utopian more though so I'd have to swap its research benefit. But maybe EFFIC does make sense for AI Controlled? AI isn't corrupt like a human can be.

Edit: It seems the AI hates Green at +2 grow +2 planet -1 ind. It also doesn't really like Prosperity how I have it now either. Seems to underrate GROWTH and overrate INDUSTRY, MORALE.

[Nexii]

Seems the AI likes Prosperity a lot more with +INDUSTRY, instead of +TALENT. Even with MORALE increased to -2. I can live with that, -2 MORALE is a pretty hard downside.

It's tricky to find the intersection of what makes sense and what the AI will choose. I don't really like SEs that only a human player will take advantage of.

Politics, Economics, Values, Future Society
Frontier,        None,    None
Police State,    DocLoy,  ++POLICE, ++PROBE, +EFFIC, -GROWTH
Democratic,      InfNet,  ++++EFFIC, +TALENT, --POLICE
Fundamentalist,  Psych,   ++GROWTH, ++EFFIC, --RESEARCH
Simple,          None,    None
Free Market,     IndEcon, ++ECONOMY, --SUPPORT, ---PLANET
Planned,         PlaNets, ++SUPPORT, +INDUSTRY, --ECONOMY
Green,           CentEmp, ++PLANET, +RESEARCH, +TALENT
Survival,        None,
Power,           AdapDoc, ++SUPPORT, +MORALE, -TALENT
Knowledge,       Integ,   ++RESEARCH, +PLANET, +PROBE, -POLICE
Prosperity,      AdapEco, ++GROWTH, +INDUSTRY, +TALENT, --MORALE
None,            None,
AI Controlled,   DigSent, ++INDUSTRY, ++SUPPORT, ++EFFIC, ---PROBE
Utopian,         Eudaim,  ++ECONOMY, ++RESEARCH, ++GROWTH, ---POLICE
Orwellian,       WillPow, ++POLICE, ++PROBE, ++MORALE, ---RESEARCH

[vonbach]

I've been running a test game with your SE choices. I always play on the "planet no jungle" map.  The faction I'm playing has +2 growth -2 pop.
So far all is well I've been using Fundamentalist Free Market and its going well. Fundamentalism is just the old Democracy with actual weaknesses.

[Nexii]

Btw if you didn't know you can mod random maps to omit the jungle, in #NATURAL
Monsoon Jungle, Jungle, 0

Edit: This might only work on Yitzi's patch
 
Yea I feel Fundamentalist is good, especially for a faction with +2 growth. Three options to pop boom, Creche, Prosperity, Golden Age. I always found Golden Age hard early game though, it's probably because I made Boreholes take more tech.

[vonbach]

I always terraform the same way, I spam forests everywhere. I usually play on a specific map for test games
Usually earth, venus or planet. I almost never make random maps.

[Nexii]

I often play on weak erosion maps. Higher altitudes make farm/solar better than forests in some spots. Also I make forests take 8 turns. I don't think they produce too much they just are a bit fast. Because a farm + solar takes 8 turns too (or a little more if not on flat ground).

I really should run my testing on non-random maps now that I think about it. So much variance is in whether you get a good spot or not.

[vonbach]

I really should run my testing on non-random maps now that I think about it. So much variance is in whether you get a good spot or not.

The planet  map is actually a decent test map. I know what to expect. I have a version with no jungle I like its more balanced.

[Nexii]

Yea I always felt Monsoon was a bit too good, I have it off for random maps. Uranium flats is very good too though not as broken. Because it's flat land. I think if Monsoon was only low and flat land it would still be strong just a bit less broken. Basically make it good only for forests.

I think your Mars and Pangaea maps might be best for AI test games. AI does best over one big continent. Though personally I prefer playing on maps with a few continents, something about the feel of it.

I started a new game as Believers. They're quite strong at growth, I'm way up on population. Though their tech rate is bad, I'm keeping up but not the leader. Got lucky being near Morgan/PKs and no one wanted to war early. So I think at year 2189 I've gotten enough ahead that the rest of the game is sort of won.

I ended up putting Free Market to -3 PLANET. It's just that good. I think I was a bit worried how devastating tanking Planet could be. Because last time I had such steep -PLANET native life was too cheap to make. It became sort of unstoppable and made Green a necessity. Though it was amusing to see the AI build swarms of Isles of the Deep. I'm guessing at a certain point it sees them as both the best transport and the best fighting option.

And I can't seem to entice the AI to try Prosperity. Even without its penalty it likes Power and Knowledge more. Oh well. It is funny because it likes Fundamentalist a lot for GROWTH. And avoided Green due to negative INDUSTRY.

Edit: I think what's going on is the AI values GROWTH very low past +2. I do wonder if something was put in to temper it from booming often. There's no strong tendency to pick Fundamentalist when it's +6 GROWTH.

[vonbach]

Pangea maps turn into a massive free for all. That could be interesting I haven't played on a pangea map in ages.

On the subject of Green penalties what doesn't the AI care about? Maybe give it that as a penalty.
Or maybe -talent to try and fool the AI that there are no penalties.
Maybe try that. Give it something like Effic Planet and something like a point of growth or economy.

If thats too much growth maybe take a point away from fundamentalism.

[Nexii]

Na I think Fundamentalism is fine. Going to Democracy is always a huge research boost. Heck even Police State is better research rate than Fundamentalism. I think I'm just used to thinking Fundamentalism shouldn't be good, because it wasn't good in the stock SE set.

Green factions will take Green as I have it due to compulsion. And very rarely other factions. I'm okay with that, usually Free Market or Planned are better unless you already have +PLANET rating. Native life is kind of weak otherwise. Once you get up around 4-5 PLANET its very good especially against Free Market players. It's like you being at Elite morale and them being at Very Green. It's fine to keep Green sort of a niche strategy, because you also have powerful SPs like Dream Twist and Neural Amp that come in later. And the dreaded Wave ability once you get PSI on regular units cancels Trance. Super strong with PLANET applying to defense. I think if you don't have that on then it's reasonable to give Green a little more boost. +EFFIC, +GROWTH, something like that. But it's more like a MORALE boost to PSI units/combat really than a big economic boost.

I did give Prosperity +TALENT in addition to its +INDUSTRY. Minor, but I think it would increase faction happiness.

[vonbach]

I've been running fundamentalism for the entire game. While the population is nice the drones are not.
One of the main reasons I'm using it is I'm trying to keep Miriam on my side as long as possible.
 I gave her the +2 growth -2 pop like I gave myself and she's easily the second most powerful faction.
She destroyed another faction on her continent like I have.
Going from Free Market to anything else is a massive pain. None of the rest of the economic systems are good for actually making money.
Power seems weak especially with the - talent. Prosperity seems too strong. Knowledge I'll never pick with -2 police. Police ratings are just to hard to come by.
Police also isn't easy to come by. The talent helps but more police would be nice.

[Nexii]

Yea Planned is more for making/supporting a large army. Or for supporting a lot of terraformers to disband later. Once your bases get a bit bigger the base square loss isn't quite as painful.

I did mod many facilities to be somewhat lower on cost and maintenance. Many just weren't worth building like ever. I think the devs didn't really test out how hard it was to make any money while in anything but Free Market. Hologram Theatre and Research Hospital stick out to me as key early facilities that are overcosted. And a lot of the late-game facilities that honestly don't do that much for 20+ rows. 50% more on the base was much overestimated for things like Nanoreplicator, Quantum Lab.

You can mitigate it a lot by terraforming the sea. Kelp+tidal is really good till you get boreholes. Probably also if you're going all Forests it will result in lower energy than farm/solar. Which admittedly isn't that amazing on a flat map. I also made echelons fast to construct to make farm/solar more viable. They had a good idea here having multiple terraforming choices only...echelons were too slow and required too much tech. Plus I made enrichers come when you get Tree Farm, to keep them equal. I'm still playing around with how much tech Echelons should require if any. I didn't really like that 100% forests was ideal most of the time. I was trying to mod such that you'd want some energy-focused bases and some mineral-focused, but not quite there yet. Making Echelons available at the start of the game is an idea I'm playing around with.

Recosting facilities again is on my list.

Power I think is decent, SUPPORT I used to vastly underrate. But for much of the game your bases are around 10-20 minerals meaning 2 SUP is as good as 2 INDUSTRY, but only if it's used for military or terraformers.

I'm kind of leery of making +3 POLICE super easy for all factions because then its just 3 police sentinels per base and no need for drone facilities or any psych allocation for a very long time. I could make PS and/or Power get you there but then those picks would need much higher downsides. Another place to put +1 POLICE may be Planned. But yea easy +3 POLICE does scare me how strong it can be, it could overpower Police State in all circumstances. 9 drones or even superdrones quelled is no joke.

Knowledge being a bit weak I think that's a more fair observation. I think the issue is that it mostly only goes with Democratic, since you're losing the police sentinel anyways. I'll update Knowledge to be just -1 POLICE. Then it still can create P-drones for Democratic. I think what happened was I had Democratic at -1 POLICE so Knowledge had to be -2 to make P-drones show up before the super late game. It's fair to observe though that generally Power goes with Police State, Knowledge with Democratic, and Prosperity with Fundamentalist. Some mixing can occur... but that seems to be the tendency.

[vonbach]

Bear in mind I'm using elements from other mods including clean formers.

I did mod many facilities to be somewhat lower on cost and maintenance. Many just weren't worth building like ever. I think the devs didn't really test out how hard it was to make any money while in anything but Free Market. Hologram Theatre and Research Hospital stick out to me as key early facilities that are overcosted. And a lot of the late-game facilities that honestly don't do that much for 20+ rows. 50% more on the base was much overestimated for things like Nanoreplicator, Quantum Lab.

Making money is doable and I've lowered some of the costs myself and I think their still in place.

You can mitigate it a lot by terraforming the sea. Kelp+tidal is really good till you get boreholes. Probably also if you're going all Forests it will result in lower energy than farm/solar. Which admittedly isn't that amazing on a flat map. I also made echelons fast to construct to make farm/solar more viable. They had a good idea here having multiple terraforming choices only...echelons were too slow and required too much tech. Plus I made enrichers come when you get Tree Farm, to keep them equal. I'm still playing around with how much tech Echelons should require.

I always go almost pure forest spam simply because I like it and eat the energy costs.

Power I think is decent, SUPPORT I used to vastly underrate. But for much of the game your bases are around 10-20 minerals meaning 2 SUP is as good as 2 INDUSTRY, but only if it's used for military or terraformers.

Police would be nice as an add on or a different penalty like -effic or - economy.

I'm kind of leery of making +3 POLICE super easy for all factions because then its just 3 police sentinels per base and no need for drone facilities or any psych allocation for a very long time.

Knowledge being a bit weak I think that's a more fair observation. I think the issue is that it mostly only goes with Democratic, since you're losing the police sentinel anyways. May reduce it to just -1 POLICE but then it's sort of a free pick? 0 POLICE and -1 POLICE are pretty much the same thing if you're in Fundamentalist. Though honestly it's better to be Prosperity with Fundamentalist, so I guess I shouldn't be worried. Ditto for Police State it has a strong tendency to go with Power. I'll update Knowledge to be just -1 POLICE. Then it still can create P-drones for Democratic. I think what happened was I had Democratic at -1 POLICE so Knowledge had to be -2 to make P-drones show up before the super late game.

I like to spread out Police bonuses a little. Like giving fundamentalism +police ++growth +effic +police --research. Just so you have a different option or giving power a +police.
Probe penalties for Knowledge is to weak and Police is too strong a penalty maybe split the difference and give knowledge something else but probe. Personally I always thought it suited power better. None of the bonuses power gets are that good in the long run really. All of them can be gotten through unit upgrades.
Maybe try something like this ++SUPPORT +MORALE +PROBE +POLICE for something like -economy and - effic.
I'm not sure I like prosperity with growth honestly. I like giving Green (autarky) growth but thats just me.