Waterworld!

[Kirov]

I see you guys want to continue. All right, let's do this then! However, we need to decide what we do with the past four turns. I have quite a bunch of bases and units and it's not going to be easy to precisely retrace my movements and actions. Plus, I'd like to get the same result for the EG attack, i.e. no losses for my air units. I hope you're okay with that. So what do we do? It seems Kata needs to redo the first turn he used that exploit.

[Vishniac]

If we choose to play on, I'd rather not redo the last 4 turns.

[Geo]

IMHO, this game feels stained now.

So the council counter wouldn't start running again if the air unit exploit wasn't used from this turn forward?

[Kirov]

IMHO, this game feels stained now.

So the council counter wouldn't start running again if the air unit exploit wasn't used from this turn forward?

I feel it's stained, too, but if you want to continue, guys, no problem. Yes, I *believe* that the counter would start again if everything was played as normal, however (this is @ Vishniac) I simply can't agree to play on as if nothing happened. Sorry, I'm not being fussy here, but considering the tactical situation around my EG base, the 4-turn council delay matters a great deal for me in-game.

So maybe it's better to start all over after all, with more balanced starting points and the AI.

[Yitzi]

IMHO, this game feels stained now.

So the council counter wouldn't start running again if the air unit exploit wasn't used from this turn forward?

I feel it's stained, too, but if you want to continue, guys, no problem. Yes, I *believe* that the counter would start again if everything was played as normal, however (this is @ Vishniac) I simply can't agree to play on as if nothing happened. Sorry, I'm not being fussy here, but considering the tactical situation around my EG base, the 4-turn council delay matters a great deal for me in-game.

So maybe it's better to start all over after all, with more balanced starting points and the AI.

The council, at least, should not be a concern; the latest savegame I provided does update the date properly, at least for council and display purposes.

[Vishniac]

So maybe it's better to start all over after all, with more balanced starting points and the AI.

Ok!

Perhaps with 2 or 3 AIs instead of just one.
The Bree had clearly too many advantages:
- It was already good for them to be technically ahead and to have 17 bases.
- getting 2 minerals from fungus square was more than any human could get since we were sea-based and almost unable to plant and harvest forests.
- the 3-res armor was clearly over-the-top! It made their units undestroyable till we have impactors and their bases untakable unless we have missile weapon.
- and the last straw for The Hive was:

Everyone has a pretty nice start position, and everyone has semi-obvious tricks they can pull to improve their start positions dramatically (land bases for channels across single square land, specific terraforming, grabbing the nexus, etc).

I thought I had some time to grow behind the long land strip but the biggest error was to put a land Bree base somewhere near me (I spotted its red line the first turn). Thus I have never been able to put a base as channel but the Bree did fast and they funneled through it all the units they wanted to blocus and attack my bases, ot to talk about denying me the terraformed lands around my cities (yes, I was the one building a land former at the beginning.  ). THAT is what made it difficult for me.

[Kataphraktoi]

I would like to opt out of future games, been struggling with some medical issues last few weeks (ear infections) and just have no real interest to keep me motivated beyond the fact i said i would play it out by signing up. Therefore ill be playing onwards in the rising sun game, hopefully until a replacement comes forward for the univ, which may not happen but oh well. Im a bit relieved its over to be honest enjoyable at times but also quite stressful.

To talk about the game a bit, around turn 12 i think a bree 3res boat showed up and killed a transportship+AA behind my HQ base then also a sea former or two. Now i can see geo made a better and more determined push for WP but at the time i was so frsutrated to miss my chance at that SP and honestly was almost resigning the game a few times but made myself keep playing. My moral was completely broken by this setback although later on i guess the bree started hitting everyone else much harder and compensated. Made so many mistakes, many times miscounting EC rush costs etc, but i feel my economic plan materialized decently. Using transports to put crawlers on forests and only using sea bases turned out well but somehow it feels like in last 20 turns i didnt do enough to maintain momentum. I just need a ton more bases, and about flos...well i could have afforded to put sea bases in position so i could attack when i gained air power, but i just didnt plan it out.

My game password was liberty, for the curious

[Vishniac]

My game password was liberty, for the curious

I just went to see who was where since I was never able to see beyond my borders.

And talking about the Bree, here is my final score:
Hive units destroyed: 38
Bree units destroyed: 57

Now waiting until someone propose a new game. 

[Geo]

Okay, this game is quits then.

It looks like I had it easiest regarding the Bree, but then again, perhaps I was just smart how I managed exploring at the beginning.
At least, Vishniac's story leaves me inclined to think so.

I don't think I was ever really a contender in this game. The -2 Growth did indeed cripple expansion alot. Finishing the Weather Paradigm might've been my best luck in this game, but that's linked with a couple hundreds energy obtained from 'pods. I could never hope going up against the Drone's industrialism, or the Technocrat's science. Always had to rely on diplomacy to keep my faction in the running.
Military wise, all my successes were always preceded by an overwhelming defeat of my first task force towards the objective. If that hadn't happened, I'd have had a better outer defensive rim by the time the 'big boys' boomed into action.

If someone wants to take a look at my saves, my password for this game was "DevilMayCare".

[Kirov]

Sorry for writing late, but I had a few thoughts I wanted to put out here.

-   the map:

Usually I’m not fond of huge maps, if only for the reason that the game is decided before you can put any hurt on other players, but this one I kinda liked, if only for some interesting paths of contact we with Kata could reach each other through and try to control. One was more obvious, through the EG (Flos), the other one – SW for Kata, NE for me, with some interesting spots (AI base Robur) and terrain on the way.

However, the usual problem with huge maps occurred – when Kata run away with his second popboom, I desperately tried to forge a coalition and even had some success with it – but it didn’t really matter as it would take ages to reach even his frontier bases. This issue greatly limits the potential of diplomacy on huge maps and reduces it to tech and vote trade.

Another thing is, on this ocean map there was still much too much land to truly call it waterworld. I was very quick to storm the land and I was extremely surprised to discover, when I got the EG, that nobody else built even a single land base. For me, land is priority and I wouldn’t throw away even smallest isles. The cost of a sea colony pod does it all, plus you don’t need support-consuming transports to add formers and crawlers.

-   the balance:

Several problems here. The first and foremost was the Hive’s placement. I believe Vishniac had a much worse place than the rest of us, way too close to the AI, with a lot of heat down there. More about the AI below.

Geo’s factions, Atlantis, sucks big time. Free submarines at the end of the game and cheaper terraforming down is laughable compared to -2 Growth. Bonuses to probe and police…, nah, it’s not even close. Even the Cult of Planet might be stronger than this.

-   the AI:

The main problem with the AI is that it’s completely  unpredictable, at least to me, in its stupidity. With strong CPU, you never know who gets hit harder, and among equal players, the loss of a single sea former early on may spell disaster. Much effort should be made to make sure the situation is balanced, and in general, the AI probably shouldn’t be a threat in the first 20-30 turns.

Another problem with a strong AI is that it’s ripe for probe raping. This was or could be a great help to tech-impaired factions like the Drones and the Hive – you use your Industry bonus to build cheap probes and boom – suddenly all your tech problems are solved. The problem with early Drones is not that they don’t have techs, because those can be traded, but that the Drones initially have nothing to trade for. AI raping solves this issue. I stole a lot of techs from Bree myself, but I was the least dependent on this technique. And when I stole EcoEng (which I was already on the way to) and noticed that Domai already has it, I knew the situation wasn’t quite balanced. The Drones would never on their own grab EcoEng in the 2150s or 60s.

One potential solution is to put “interlocks” in each AI base, but I’m afraid this doesn’t do much. When I discovered a land AI base nearby, it took me a long time to establish a frontier and slowly make a road there, but it was worth it – I probed Herba with numerous infantry probes for 4-5 techs and their map (another stuff which is just too good from a strong AI). Even when every second one probe was dead, it was still worth it.

And HQ is every base… something is definitely bugged here. Sometimes you can conquer the AI’s HQ and end up with two capital cities (I wonder which one is moved when you relocate the HQ?), but sometimes an HQ appears in one of your native bases when you conquer a completely different AI base. Weird. All I know is that I finished the game with 3 HQs and the last one appeared in a base I founded.


-   Technocrats

I kind of like this faction, but have some remarks. It gives you nodes in every base and +1 Effic, so I knew from the start that I want to ICS and grab PTS and PEG, especially when we discovered the lower difficulty level. What surprises me in this faction is that it has half the Effic penalty (impunity or whatsitsname), good for running PS or Planned, but this offers no synergy with the most preferred (and my favourite) SE setting for energy-oriented builders – Demo/FM/Wealth. Hab limit down to 5 is definitely a bummer and the thing which makes this faction much worse than the overpowered Zak.





On a side note, I like the idea of killing the chopper movement. They’re worthless on the offense now but very useful for defending with SAM ability. I want to test it more in other MP games and I think it’s good we tweaked the rules a bit.

Long story short, the game was great and exciting and I enjoyed it a lot. At first I was worried I was gonna get bored with tedious ICS, but when Kata pop-boomed, this certainly added a lot of pressure for mer. Pity we had to end it, I still had a trick or two up my sleeve for later on. Ah, we get it next time.

Last but not least – thank you all guys very much for commitment to turn pushing and nice diplomacy, it worked out great and the game was faster than many 1v1s. I certainly want to play with you more, so we can think about another game or just hit me up if you set up something! 

Thanks ete for CMNing and take care you all.

(sorry for not giving my password, but I’m lazy and use a variation of one word to most of my games; I can describe anything you want and I'm posting a screenshot of my area for Vishniac)

[Geo]

Ah, that visiting foil did indeed "accidently" spot 2 of my bases.

I was happy with (most of) the diplomacy in this game. And part of the reason I used an "unwinnable" faction was to look less of a threat and see if I could get diplomacy going.

But I really did underestimate the power of popbooming. If my Tau Ceti project ever gets semi-finished, I'll have to make sure it is not possible reaching +50% growth in the early game.

[Yitzi]

On a side note, I like the idea of killing the chopper movement.

You might want to give some thought to restoring their movement to 8, but removing the bonus from reactor.  This would make fission choppers stronger than your plan (but then, 6 movement total is a bit weak), and quantum/singularity choppers weaker.

[Kataphraktoi]

Another problem with a strong AI is that it’s ripe for probe raping. This was or could be a great help to tech-impaired factions like the Drones and the Hive – you use your Industry bonus to build cheap probes and boom – suddenly all your tech problems are solved. The problem with early Drones is not that they don’t have techs, because those can be traded, but that the Drones initially have nothing to trade for. AI raping solves this issue. I stole a lot of techs from Bree myself, but I was the least dependent on this technique. And when I stole EcoEng (which I was already on the way to) and noticed that Domai already has it, I knew the situation wasn’t quite balanced. The Drones would never on their own grab EcoEng in the 2150s or 60s.

It seems you didnt read my PMs so carefully and i have to contradict you once again;the Drones did not obtain Eco Eng from the AI via probes, and infact not only was i the last player to use probes against the AI and gain infiltration, i would maintain we gained quite a bit less from probing than from certain other factions. Yes we traded a few techs back and fourth with Atlantis, but we even got hit with the communications blackout and didnt recieve Eco Eng as promised in a trade, and finished the tech ourselves. This trading is due to us dispatching our first naval units in all directions to find players, and skipping local scouting efforts until later. If it sounds like im getting bent out of shape on this topic, its because we worked hard to have a decent econ and tech up;i dont and never have relied on probe teams. 

[Kirov]

I remember your PM on this issue, but didn’t bring it up for several reasons. One, it was somewhere at that point when I spotted your probe team (a rover one, on a transport foil) right next to some Bree base (in your area, SW). Second, I checked and in 2150 you had neither SocPsych nor Biogenetics, so I figured at least parts of your tech were not done independently.

But this is less important than what I really had in mind. To be blunt, I simply can’t agree that not using probe teams is something to be proud of in this game. I’m sorry Kata, but in my opinion this was simply a mistake, and a huge one. If I were Domai, I’d be very heavy on probes. Probing is not something I resort to when I fail to put up decent infrastructure; it’s always an important part of my strategy, as vital as preparing a separate base for FM military operations. Sure, there are drawbacks, some probe teams simply died fruitlessly and others brought me garbage like Field Modulation, but at the end of the day, I profited a lot in this game from probes and I see no reason why everyone else couldn’t do that.

Case in point – Planetary Economics, which was researched by Bree. I was watching this intensely and aimed to steal it and build AV right on the same turn Bree gets the tech, but unfortunately I was late 1-2 turns (Bree bombed my formers building a road to Herba). This happened shortly after you built CF. Now, if you had your probes ready and snatched AV, I would never say we were close to a tie. AV was vital to my strategy, one for longer popboom, two – it allowed me to run PS/FM and keep fighting a regular war, without separate FM bases. This would be a great leverage against your Industry bonus in the upcoming conflict and I’d have been most unhappy to see you with both CF and AV.

Another trick I like to have at my disposal is getting at least one probe to Elite and leave it for later. If necessary, I can probe a human player and frame another one, thus driving a huge wedge between them (good luck trying to convince somebody that you’ve been framed). Now, usually it’s too dangerous to just carelessly do that (I think the chance is 50%, i.e. the probe must survive in order to successfully frame), but sometimes you want to take this risk. I can’t confirm or deny if one was already heading another player, just in case.

So to rephrase what I said earlier – factions like Domai and Hive should try to probe a strong AI as much as humanly possible and when they do, this annuls at least huge chunks of their energy impairment.

[Yitzi]

I remember your PM on this issue, but didn’t bring it up for several reasons. One, it was somewhere at that point when I spotted your probe team (a rover one, on a transport foil) right next to some Bree base (in your area, SW). Second, I checked and in 2150 you had neither SocPsych nor Biogenetics, so I figured at least parts of your tech were not done independently.

But this is less important than what I really had in mind. To be blunt, I simply can’t agree that not using probe teams is something to be proud of in this game. I’m sorry Kata, but in my opinion this was simply a mistake, and a huge one. If I were Domai, I’d be very heavy on probes. Probing is not something I resort to when I fail to put up decent infrastructure; it’s always an important part of my strategy, as vital as preparing a separate base for FM military operations. Sure, there are drawbacks, some probe teams simply died fruitlessly and others brought me garbage like Field Modulation, but at the end of the day, I profited a lot in this game from probes and I see no reason why everyone else couldn’t do that.

Case in point – Planetary Economics, which was researched by Bree. I was watching this intensely and aimed to steal it and build AV right on the same turn Bree gets the tech, but unfortunately I was late 1-2 turns (Bree bombed my formers building a road to Herba). This happened shortly after you built CF. Now, if you had your probes ready and snatched AV, I would never say we were close to a tie. AV was vital to my strategy, one for longer popboom, two – it allowed me to run PS/FM and keep fighting a regular war, without separate FM bases. This would be a great leverage against your Industry bonus in the upcoming conflict and I’d have been most unhappy to see you with both CF and AV.

Another trick I like to have at my disposal is getting at least one probe to Elite and leave it for later. If necessary, I can probe a human player and frame another one, thus driving a huge wedge between them (good luck trying to convince somebody that you’ve been framed). Now, usually it’s too dangerous to just carelessly do that (I think the chance is 50%, i.e. the probe must survive in order to successfully frame), but sometimes you want to take this risk. I can’t confirm or deny if one was already heading another player, just in case.

So to rephrase what I said earlier – factions like Domai and Hive should try to probe a strong AI as much as humanly possible and when they do, this annuls at least huge chunks of their energy impairment.

I think that from a player perspective, trying to win the game, that makes sense, but such tactics (including the "single base for FM military" one) do contribute to imbalance in the game, and so while doing them makes sense, banning or disabling them for everybody (whichever works better) probably makes sense as well.