Trade unit prototypes, trade world maps and give units to another player.

[Dio]

Some time ago I was looking in the code to see if the options to trade unit prototypes and world maps not only existed as a seperate option in the script.txt but also in the code. In addition, I found the give unit option in the script.txt file. So I found the  trade prototypes exactly under the label "PROTO". I was wondering if it is possible to add those as selectable options to the diplomatic proposal menu?

[Yitzi]

May be, but dealing with menus tends to be somewhat of a pain.  I also don't think allowing unit prototypes to be traded is such a good idea in terms of gameplay.

[Kirov]

Wow, that's interesting. In my opinion, trading prototypes would be in fact an excellent addition to the current, not-that-extensive-after-ll diplomacy. What is important is that it shouldn't be prone to probing, though (unless only as a risky mission).

I don't understand about the rest, as you can already trade world maps and give units as it is. Granted, the first one can't be done with AI unless in a specific situation when either party runs out of techs to sell, and the latter one requires the unit in question to be in the givee's territory. Can these conditions be changed in any way?

But yeah, I heard that changes to UI are troublesome and probably won't make top priority for anyone.

[Yitzi]

Wow, that's interesting. In my opinion, trading prototypes would be in fact an excellent addition to the current, not-that-extensive-after-ll diplomacy. What is important is that it shouldn't be prone to probing, though (unless only as a risky mission).

The problem is that it allows you to get the full benefits of a tech without actually learning that tech (and thus slows you down.)

It'd also be pretty much impossible to have a separate "prototypes known" feature...

I don't understand about the rest, as you can already trade world maps and give units as it is. Granted, the first one can't be done with AI unless in a specific situation when either party runs out of techs to sell, and the latter one requires the unit in question to be in the givee's territory. Can these conditions be changed in any way?

Those could, but that would require dealing with menus.[/quote]

[Kirov]

The problem is that it allows you to get the full benefits of a tech without actually learning that tech (and thus slows you down.)

If it is only tradable and never stealable, then any imbalance issues are the seller's headache. And I imagine it would invite certain sneak attacks, where the victim doesn't see it coming as you don't have the preqs (which the victim can see if she has the tech in question). Yeah, definitely a nice boost to diplomacy and to war-oriented factions. And as for imba, if that's your concern - you can already give away all your techs, all EC and the world map with one click if you want to. I don't believe the above would break anything here.

It'd also be pretty much impossible to have a separate "prototypes known" feature...

So then, there is not much to talk about in the first place, is it? How did they expect to work this option in without the proper design?

[Dio]

The problem is that it allows you to get the full benefits of a tech without actually learning that tech (and thus slows you down.)

If it is only tradable and never stealable, then any imbalance issues are the seller's headache. And I imagine it would invite certain sneak attacks, where the victim doesn't see it coming as you don't have the preqs (which the victim can see if she has the tech in question). Yeah, definitely a nice boost to diplomacy and to war-oriented factions. And as for imba, if that's your concern - you can already give away all your techs, all EC and the world map with one click if you want to. I don't believe the above would break anything here.

It'd also be pretty much impossible to have a separate "prototypes known" feature...

So then, there is not much to talk about in the first place, is it? How did they expect to work this option in without the proper design?

Regarding the give units options and trade world map diplomacy options, there is no diplomatic option currently enabled that lets a non-AI ask a factions world map and it happens automatically when in a pact. As for giving units to an another faction, I am fairly certain that only AI controlled factions could give units to a another faction in single player.

[Kirov]

Regarding the give units options and trade world map diplomacy options, there is no diplomatic option currently enabled that lets a non-AI ask a factions world map and it happens automatically when in a pact. As for giving units to an another faction, I am fairly certain that only AI controlled factions could give units to a another faction in single player.

You certainly can give units to AI in single player, just move a unit into their territory and hit Ctrl+Shift+U. In the case of mind worms, you even get the choice to either transfer it or 'release it into the wild'.

[Yitzi]

If it is only tradable and never stealable, then any imbalance issues are the seller's headache.

No, because there might be a third party.

So then, there is not much to talk about in the first place, is it? How did they expect to work this option in without the proper design?

Well, either I'm mistaken about the design (it's possible, I don't remember if I examined it thoroughly, or only for facilities), or the script.txt is from an earlier plan where it would be possible, that they ended up not making.  Dio, where in the code did you find whatever it is you found?

[Kirov]

No, because there might be a third party.

As I said above, this simply doesn't happen in MP. People almost never trade not only D:AP, but even IA. World map is almost never on the table. I would think twice even before selling Doc:Flex, and just recently I refused to sell Doc:Mob to a player, fearing it would give him too much in terms of tactical advantage, and it's a freaking tier1 tech. So I'm sure trading prototypes would be a very rare deal requiring a lot of investment in mutual trust and with a potential to backfire against the seller if done without caution. Long story short - great fun, will make for a good story every now and then, but with no chance to become OP, or even that common in the first place. I say bring it on if you can.

[Kirov]

Addendum: it is worth remembering that there is no CO-OP victory in SMAC, which I think is the main reason why a full symbiosis almost never happens in MP. If anything, people should have more incentives to trade. For example, I'd welcome giving loans and stuff like that.

[Yitzi]

As I said above, this simply doesn't happen in MP. People almost never trade not only D:AP, but even IA. World map is almost never on the table. I would think twice even before selling Doc:Flex, and just recently I refused to sell Doc:Mob to a player, fearing it would give him too much in terms of tactical advantage, and it's a freaking tier1 tech. So I'm sure trading prototypes would be a very rare deal requiring a lot of investment in mutual trust and with a potential to backfire against the seller if done without caution. Long story short - great fun, will make for a good story every now and then, but with no chance to become OP, or even that common in the first place. I say bring it on if you can.

Or they're in a pact and going for a cooperative victory...

Addendum: it is worth remembering that there is no CO-OP victory in SMAC.

What are you talking about?  One of the options is to enable cooperative victory, and I believe it is on by default.

[Dio]

@Yitzi, here are the of the addresses for the following options as far as I know:  trade prototype, trade world map and give unit (other than the referenced textstrings that say "sending trade map"). The address for trading prototypes is 0053A2D4. The addresses for trading world maps are as followed and labeled: Reject trademaps: 00545DCC and 054F5D, TradeMaps: 00545DEF and 0054F5F4. The addresses for giving units are catergorized by whether they are combat, defensive, native or simply a unit. The addresses are 004CF2VB8, 004CF2CE, 004CF2EB, 004CF34D and 004CF363.

P.S.: If you have a need for some more references, I can give them to you but I currently have my hands full with making art. This means I will be unable to help implement them in the near future but I thought it would be a good idea to bring these potential options to the attention of someone who is more qualified to deal with them.

[Yitzi]

@Yitzi, here are the of the addresses for the following options as far as I know:  trade prototype, trade world map and give unit (other than the referenced textstrings that say "sending trade map"). The address for trading prototypes is 0053A2D4. The addresses for trading world maps are as followed and labeled: Reject trademaps: 00545DCC and 054F5D, TradeMaps: 00545DEF and 0054F5F4. The addresses for giving units are catergorized by whether they are combat, defensive, native or simply a unit. The addresses are 004CF2VB8, 004CF2CE, 004CF2EB, 004CF34D and 004CF363.

P.S.: If you have a need for some more references, I can give them to you but I currently have my hands full with making art. This means I will be unable to help implement them in the near future but I thought it would be a good idea to bring these potential options to the attention of someone who is more qualified to deal with them.

Yeah, it does seem that there's the possibility of sharing prototypes.

I realized what my mistake was: You said "unit prototypes" and I thought "the ability to use a feature you don't have the tech for yet".  This is really just giving the design and prototyping it; it doesn't let you use any features in other designs (unless you reverse-engineer, but I consider that an exploit.)

It probably could be implemented, but it would be a substantial job, so unless there's large demand for it it'll probably be delayed until after other things.

[Kirov]

What are you talking about?  One of the options is to enable cooperative victory, and I believe it is on by default.

Why do you need to ask? I'm talking, as always, about practice. I've never won or lost by coop, never accepted to win or lose by it, never heard anyone pondering it, offering it, losing to it, complaining about it, even as much as discussing it. 4-player games are the standard, some are 3-player; joint victory of 2 players under such conditions, in 99.9% cases, would be the lamest thing to do this side of cheating. Why, does your MP experience say otherwise?

[Yitzi]

Ah, I didn't realize you were talking about practice; "no co-op victory in SMAC" sounds like it is not possible, not like it's too difficult to get enough players in a game* to make it an interesting feature.  (Also, it would be less lame if it were, say, me and someone else who's not very good at the game teaming up against Earthmichael...in a good rankings system, co-ops would suffer an appropriate penalty to the rank gained by winning and would thereby have a cost and be less lame.)


*Because I presume that 7 players would be done if enough people could be gotten, and gotten to play the game through, to make it work; 7-player seems it'll be a far richer game than 4-player.