Unit cost change ideas

[Nexii]

Gotcha.  Ok this makes more sense.  Infantry would indeed be 20,30,40,50.  That's fine if other units are at 20,40,60,80.

Yea, with AS.  You can kill an unprotected unit, then it fights just fine at 100% its weapon value against the anti-air unit sent as a counter.  Granted if you're in-close to SAM infantry, it will get killed cheaply.  Is it intended that defending AS units get their weapon value when not scrambling?  I'd argue maybe this is more of a bug...the air unit is on the airstrip not in the air when at home.  Air units without AS can at least be counter-hit by AS units at no loss.  They seem to use their defensive value (armor:1).

With infantry getting cut in cost, and AAA free, this does create more of a rock paper scissors.  Rock being infantry, scissors air, paper rovers.  I'm a little concerned that rovers (moreso hovertanks, than rovers actually) might be a little overcosted to counter defense infantry.  Of course, attack infantry and artillery also counter defensive infantry very well.  Especially if you have Elite troops and your enemy does not.

[Yitzi]

Gotcha.  Ok this makes more sense.  Infantry would indeed be 20,30,40,50.  That's fine if other units are at 20,40,60,80.

Yea, with AS.  You can kill an unprotected unit, then it fights just fine at 100% its weapon value against the anti-air unit sent as a counter.

Only against air anti-air, I believe.

Granted if you're in-close to SAM infantry, it will get killed cheaply.

And that's the standard case when marching on an enemy base; it is possible to hit formers or crawlers in enemy territory, but they'll have to be fairly close (or use choppers with crash landings, but they they're not fighting at 100% vs. scrambled interceptors.)

Is it intended that defending AS units get their weapon value when not scrambling?  I'd argue maybe this is more of a bug...the air unit is on the airstrip not in the air when at home.  Air units without AS can at least be counter-hit by AS units at no loss.  They seem to use their defensive value (armor:1).

Wait, are you saying that interceptors defend with their weapon even against land units?  Because if so, that might indeed be a bug.

With infantry getting cut in cost, and AAA free, this does create more of a rock paper scissors.  Rock being infantry, scissors air, paper rovers.  I'm a little concerned that rovers (moreso hovertanks, than rovers actually) might be a little overcosted to counter defense infantry.

Well, they don't always have to engage.  Depending on the situation, just outmaneuvering the infantry and running past them might work better (since unlike aircraft they don't have bases/airbases to protect).  In a straight-up battle, infantry are the most cost-effective units there are; this is compensated for by being the least able to determine where and when the battle happens.

Especially if you have Elite troops and your enemy does not.

Yeah...that is probably Santiago's biggest advantage in the early game.

[Nexii]

AS air units only get their weapon on defense against Air.  I can get that it should use its weapon value when scrambling.  But after ground-attacking?  I'm not so sure.

At least with a Needlejet or Gravship, it can be hit by SAM.  A copter returns to base after attacking.  Then when you want to hit the base, it additionally fights very well against Air.

Maybe Copters should have Cost:1 for AS, unlike Needlejets.  Actually I'm not even 100% sure that Copters *can* scramble.  As well scrambling on defense didn't seem consistent (i.e. Needlejets come and scramble only some of the time, even when fuelled).  I'll have to do some more testing to confirm.  I seem to remember some odd behavior with air-to-air combat that seemed exploitable.  Maybe it was that you could bait out Needlejets with a Scout air unit, and then kill them with a SAM.  A hard one to fix, perhaps.  I think AS units also got +100% to attack against ATG air units for some reason.  Seemed un-necessary as those ATG units only have 1 armor.  That one probably isn't major.

[Yitzi]

AS air units only get their weapon on defense against Air.  I can get that it should use its weapon value when scrambling.  But after ground-attacking?  I'm not so sure.

I think it makes sense; it's a dogfight, so they both use weapon values.  Just like if an artillery shells a location, and then another artillery unit comes in and attacks it, it will defend with its attack value in a duel.

At least with a Needlejet or Gravship, it can be hit by SAM.  A copter returns to base after attacking.  Then when you want to hit the base, it additionally fights very well against Air.

So hit the base with ground units?  Usually the best way to hit a base anyway...

Maybe Copters should have Cost:1 for AS, unlike Needlejets.

I'd disagree; they're hurt by -50% for ground strike even worse than needlejets are.

As well scrambling on defense didn't seem consistent (i.e. Needlejets come and scramble only some of the time, even when fuelled).  I'll have to do some more testing to confirm.

Please let me know what you find.

I seem to remember some odd behavior with air-to-air combat that seemed exploitable.  Maybe it was that you could bait out Needlejets with a Scout air unit, and then kill them with a SAM.  A hard one to fix, perhaps.

Indeed; I'm not even sure what the rules should be for what they do do.  But on the other hand, they do defend fairly well against that SAM unit, as I think they'll defend with their attack value (I take it we are talking about interceptors here.)

I think AS units also got +100% to attack against ATG air units for some reason.  Seemed un-necessary as those ATG units only have 1 armor.  That one probably isn't major.

They do; this can be removed in alphax if you don't like it, but is nice for further discouraging the use of armor on ground units.  It also helps if you decide to make gun or laser interceptors to save on cost.

[Nexii]

Actually the AI for scrambling is quite good, for the most part

What I found:
- Copters, Gravships, Needlejets all scramble with Air Superiority
- 100% scramble rate if the friendly unit being protected is within 2 tiles of the city
- 0% scramble rate otherwise (I couldn't get a scramble farther out, though I seemed to recall some in my games.  if anyone can check this it'd be nice)
- only scrambles when odds are better than the unit being attacked
- a unit can only scramble once a turn
- a small exploit is that a unit will scramble before you commit to the battle (in the case of declare vendetta).  so you can fake out the AS units and then hit something else

Also, air units defending against SAM land/sea units use their armor to defend.  which is how it should be

[Yitzi]

I'm opening the official submissions thread here.