Mechanics questions

[ete]

There's various formulas which would be very nice for part of the datalinks and in the power rating formula. Some are hard to test, but a coder may be able to deduce, while others are quite testable or may be known . It'd be really cool if someone could look into them/link me to info on them:

1. Mindworm capture probability formula
2. Research rating's effect on tech cost

short on time right now, will post/add more as they come to mine/i have time.

[kyrub]

1. Mindworm capture probability formula

I don't have the complete answer, but here are some important bits.
1) There is a check run over PLANET setting. This is what we see at the SE screen as "Mindwarm capture". If it fails, you never see a worm captured.
2) There is another, hidden check. RND (100 + Turn/5) is compared to Number of worms of the design that the capturing player owns. If it's greater, the capture proceeds.
3) If 2) fails, there is the last check:   a simple 1:10 RND. In short, in 10% cases, the capture proceeds no matter how many worm units of this type the player already owns.

(there are a few other factors I cannot discern, but no more random ones).
Simply speaking, the midworm capture chance decreases once you own some worm units. The decrease is less important with game time. It can decrease by 90% at maximum.

What I would reccomend:
a) do not build your own Mindworm units if you intend to capture a lot of worms.
b) If you have a large worm army, try to capture different types (I am not sure this will work, but I am inclined to believe it should), like IoD or so.
c) If your PLANET rating is high, try to use your worms in short conflicts, because you can replace them easily once their numbers are down.
d) If your PLANET rating is positive but not high, your "total mindworm capture tolerance" remains more or less the same. You need a little more time to get your worm armies up, but that's it.
e) When you have a full army of worms, your capture chance becomes this:  Chance displayed in SE / 10 (2.5% up to 7.5% for PLANET = 3).

[gwillybj]

2. Research rating's effect on tech cost

From the Prima Guide, page 23:

[11 + (DIFF x 4) + ((TECHS x 6)/5) - (TURNS/8 - (MOSTTECHS/5)] x TECHS x WORLDSIZE = RESEARCHCOST

DIFF = Difficulty Level, Citizen = 0 ... Transcend = 5
TECHS = the number of Techs you've already discovered
MOSTTECHS = the greatest number of Techs already discovered by any one player
TURNS = the number of turns that have already passed
WORLDSIZE = If you are playing on a smaller world, multiply the result by 0.6 (Tiny) or 0.8 (Small). If playing on a large world, multiply the result by 1.1 (Large) or 1.6 (Huge). (Obviously a Standard world would not be adjusted here). If you've created a custom size for your world, use these WORLDSIZE modifiers to estimate your custom WORLDSIZE modifier. (On my Humongous maps this can range from 2 to 3!)
If Tech Stagnation is selected, divide TURNS by 12 (instead of and multiply the final result (RESEARCHCOST) by 1.5.

Early in the game, if your faction is weak on Research (e.g., the Believers), the (RESEARCHCOST) can be increased by as much as 15%. Late in the game, this increase is closer to 2%. Similarly, factions that are strong on Research (e.g., the University) can decrease RESEARCHCOST by 15% to 2%.
Your final result is the number of Research Points required for your next discovery.
The result can range anywhere from about 65 (Citizen difficulty level on a Tiny world at the very beginning of the game with a research-savvy faction) to about 9000 (Transcend, Huge,  after you've discovered more than 70 Techs). If Tech Stagnation is selected, it can take over 13,000 Research Points to discover your next Tech!

As you might be able to see, the greatest factor is how many Techs you yourself have discovered. In fact, you can quickly estimate your next research cost by squaring the number of your current Techs and adding a bit. Be sure to adjust the result based on WORLDSIZE and Tech Stagnation.

Now that you know the number of Research Points you need, apply to that your factions inherent research adjustment, if any. This could be from RESEARCH (Free research points per base per turn), or TECHCOST (Modifier % for tech research rate. (e.g., 125 means each discovery costs 125% the usual number of research points)). Then apply the Social Engineering % (press the E key to find your Research Rating):
Fundamentalist = -2 (Labs research slowed by 10%, multiply your result by 0.9)
Knowledge = +2 (Labs research speeded by 20%, multiply your result by 1.2)
Cybernetic = +2 (same as Knowledge)

Then there are the citizen bonuses from Librarians, Engineers, Thinkers, and Transcendi. These bonuses are applied to the LABS rating. Your LABS rating determines how many Research Points are spent each turn. This is adjusted for the following Base Facilities (the effect is applied to Labs points at the base they're built in):
Network Node (+50%), Fusion Lab (+50%), Nanohospital (+50%, -1 Drone), Paradise Garden (+2 Talents at this base), Recycling Tanks (+1 Energy at base can be spent on Labs), Pressure Dome (acts as Recycling Tanks), Punishment Sphere (cuts Labs in half at this base after changing all Drones and Talents back to Workers), Quantum Lab (+50%), Research Hospital (+50%, -1 Drone), Stockpile Energy (All minerals produced at this base are converted to Energy at the rate of 2MINERALS = 1ENERGY).

I know increasing Talents increases Labs. Increasing talents can promote Citizens to Talents to other Specialists (Doctors, Empathi, Thinkers, Transcendi) that increase your Psych, which then can reduce Drones. I don't know the effect of reducing Drones; I hope someone can enlighten.
Some Facilities can combine their effects. Two Facilities that have the +50% ability combine to produce an extra 125% (1.5x1.5=2.25).
Some come free to every base upon researching a specific Tech.
There might be other adjustments, this is all I know.

[ete]

Both very useful answers! kryub, could you please see if you can work out how much of an effect different Planet values have on the first check (is +2 Planet twice as likely as +1 to succeed, +3 three times as likely (and are values above 3 brought down to 3?)), since that's the part which is relevant to the faction power formula?

gwillybj: Very complete! I hope you decide to help out on the wiki Okay, my faction rating formula should take Research into account properly then, since Research does not lower tech cost it just grants more research points.

[Earthmichael]

Research does not lower tech cost it just grants more research points.

But it appears that negative research does indeed increase tech costs.  Try a simple experiment.  Set up a hotseat game where you control all players on the map of Planet.  Have University, Cycon, Believers, Drones, and a couple of other factions in the game.

Just starting at the first turn, look at the difference not only in tech points produced per turn, but the number of tech points required for a breakthough.

I found that CyCon, University, Gaia, Peacekeepers, and Angels all had a tech cost of 14 for their next tech.  I was a bit surprised by this, because I thought that the factions that already had 2 techs (CyCon, University, and Angels) would have a bit higher tech cost, but this is not the case.  As you would expect, Cycon and University got 1.2 points per turn per lab, while these other factions got 1.0.

But Drones and Believers both had a tech cost of 28 for their next tech, even though they only had 1 starting tech each.  As you would expect, they only got 0.8 points per turn per lab (and both accumulating no points for 10 turns).

So as I was pointing out earlier, to properly account for this reseach negative, you have to factor in the increased cost of the techs for negative, as well as the loss in points per lab.  So instead of it taking 20% longer to tech (not even accounting for the loss of points for 10 turns), it takes 20% longer than DOUBLE the turns to reach the first tech.

[ete]

Ah, I see, only negative.. hm. That's a little more awkward to test for all values. My assumption from that one data point (double at -2) would be something like techcost*(1+negativeresearch/2), I'll try with some factions with other negative research modifiers.

Ok, after testing every value from 0 to minus six in a hotseat game with modded factions, it appears to be as simple as: if RESEARCH is negative, double techcost. That's quite a massive penalty, and makes -1 Research almost as harmful as -2. At least it's simple to implement for my formula.

[Earthmichael]

It also increases the value of SE for negative research factions (if they can use them).  So anything that get rid of negative research, like Knowledge, is worth DOUBLE to these factions, because it allows them to avoid the huge techcost penalty of negative research.  (I think this is true, but I have not tested it.)

[ete]

hm, true. Much more than double in % of research rate terms as much as to anyone else (normal faction goes from 1x to 1.2x, a 20% boost. Drones go from 0.5*0.8=0.4x to 1x, a 250% boost.). I guess maybe the Drones should beeline knowledge then, unless they're heavily probing/being fed tech (and even then it would be huge)? Does that happen?

[Earthmichael]

Again, I am not sure, I have not tested it.  But it would seem likely that if the faction could move to 0 research, then everything would be normal again.

[Yitzi]

I found that CyCon, University, Gaia, Peacekeepers, and Angels all had a tech cost of 14 for their next tech.  I was a bit surprised by this, because I thought that the factions that already had 2 techs (CyCon, University, and Angels) would have a bit higher tech cost, but this is not the case.

Indeed; techs you start out with do not count for tech cost or ecodamage.

Ah, I see, only negative.. hm. That's a little more awkward to test for all values. My assumption from that one data point (double at -2) would be something like techcost*(1+negativeresearch/2), I'll try with some factions with other negative research modifiers.

Ok, after testing every value from 0 to minus six in a hotseat game with modded factions, it appears to be as simple as: if RESEARCH is negative, double techcost. That's quite a massive penalty, and makes -1 Research almost as harmful as -2. At least it's simple to implement for my formula.

Any sense if it is weakened as the game progresses?

hm, true. Much more than double in % of research rate terms as much as to anyone else (normal faction goes from 1x to 1.2x, a 20% boost. Drones go from 0.5*0.8=0.4x to 1x, a 250% boost.). I guess maybe the Drones should beeline knowledge then, unless they're heavily probing/being fed tech (and even then it would be huge)? Does that happen?

Actually, Cyberethics is a good beeline for the Believers as well, simply because they can really use the Planetary Datalinks.

[ete]

Ah, I see, only negative.. hm. That's a little more awkward to test for all values. My assumption from that one data point (double at -2) would be something like techcost*(1+negativeresearch/2), I'll try with some factions with other negative research modifiers.

Ok, after testing every value from 0 to minus six in a hotseat game with modded factions, it appears to be as simple as: if RESEARCH is negative, double techcost. That's quite a massive penalty, and makes -1 Research almost as harmful as -2. At least it's simple to implement for my formula.

Any sense if it is weakened as the game progresses?

No, I did not test further into the game. I don't think I have a mid/lategame Drones file to test Knowledge with handy either.

[Yitzi]

Ok, I've tested it...running knowledge does nothing to affect the increased tech cost, but it does decrease a lot as the game progresses.

[Earthmichael]

Wow, if Knowledge does not fix the Tech Cost doubling, then Free Drones and Believers have more of a penalty than I ever realized!

[Yitzi]

Wow, if Knowledge does not fix the Tech Cost doubling, then Free Drones and Believers have more of a penalty than I ever realized!

Not really; as I said, it decreases a lot as the game progresses.  At the beginning of the game it's +100% cost; by the early midgame I think it's more like 20% (I think I saw 360 as opposed to 432 in one case).  So running Knowledge doesn't help it, but by the time they'd be in a position to do so anyway it's not that huge.  (That said, they will tend to lag behind in tech; the Drones should make up for it by building*, whereas the Believers are best off either extorting tech, or probing for it and killing anybody who complains.

*It doesn't really matter what; it can be tech-increasing facilities, projects, cash-increasing facilities to trade for techs, or military units/probe teams to use the Believers' solution.

[ete]

Ok, I've tested it...running knowledge does nothing to affect the increased tech cost, but it does decrease a lot as the game progresses.

My test agrees with this. I had one case with 270 vs 300 techcost, but it's still kind of strange that faction penalties still count when canceled out by SE changes, feels like a bug to me. Oddly later in the game I'm getting wildly different values, with my drone faction needing 1544 point and university still needing 300.. this seems likely to be because I gave my AI drones a lot of Mk3 Ogres which let saved them and let them take over the university, so the drones were doing all the discovering. And "TECHS = the number of Techs you've already discovered" must not include techs you've traded/stolen from people? Maybe that's why we're both getting decreases late game, simply because we're both gifting technology to the drones, and any other faction in their position would still have half the tech cost.