I'd appreciate if people could share examples of ICS.

[Yitzi]

If you're going pure ICS then the low EFFIC causing B-drones doesn't matter.  The only drone control you'll have is from police units and perhaps punishment spheres (though default Punishment Spheres are overcosted versus Clean Police). So that's why Sparta benefits as they get +3 POLICE easier than other factions.  With -1 IND you need to save any minerals possible.

So why don't the B-drones matter?  With drone rules code 8, there could easily be too many drones for even police to handle...and punishment spheres are expensive as you said and will knock your research even lower.

A few other ways to control Boom vs ICS would be the moddable support divisor (higher SUP costs favors ICS)

Definitely, but the default is already the most ICS-unfriendly that can get.

And also the much more impactful free minerals per base and colony pod costs and infantry cost.  Stronger/cheaper recycle tanks would also favor ICS

True.

[binTravkin]

there could easily be too many drones for even police to handle

Didn't police count as "hard" drone control, counting even B-Drones as a single drone?


Does anyone know of a good symmetrical SMAC map?

I wanted to try comparing Hive and Spartans @ ICS, but on my Planet Map start Spartans got excellent location and some really good early pod pops while Hive ended up next to Believers.

I guess I should disable pods entirely, but that really takes a lot away from game.

[Yitzi]

there could easily be too many drones for even police to handle

Didn't police count as "hard" drone control, counting even B-Drones as a single drone?

It counts a superdrone (2 drones' worth) as a single drone, but drones rule 8 means that if there's more than twice as many drones as population, the extras still have an effect if not dealt with.

Does anyone know of a good symmetrical SMAC map?

I wanted to try comparing Hive and Spartans @ ICS, but on my Planet Map start Spartans got excellent location and some really good early pod pops while Hive ended up next to Believers.

I guess I should disable pods entirely, but that really takes a lot away from game.

I'd say that ability to deal with poor starting conditions is also part of judging any faction...so the best way to compare might be to simply run multiple games (fortunately, ICS-friendly strategies tend to make for quick games) and see what the win percentages are.

[Nexii]

Yes but B drones are capped at base size.  So you can always control up to the base size unless you have drones from other sources.

Overall I don't feel ICS is overpowering.  The growth rate is usually less than going for less cities and booming.  A better test might be to try a solo game and see how fast you can Transcend using ICS versus booming.  I think you have to do a lot of modding in favor of ICS to make it the dominant strategy.

I wouldn't underestimate Sparta's +1 POL vs Hive.  They can maintain more drone control while in Fundamentalism at war.  For builder ICS yes Hive will outgrow Sparta.  But Sparta is the most aggressive faction.  If you aren't using their MORALE then you are falling behind. 

[binTravkin]

I think there's some confusion about which version of game we're talking about.
Yitzi's patch includes some changes on how b-drones work / can be configured to work, see here: http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/New_alphax_variables_in_Yitzi's_patch

I was referring to the original version of b-drone mechanism.

If you aren't using their MORALE then you are falling behind.

The difference between industry and morale is that industry can be used all of the time, while morale - only when you are attacking.
Depending on the "crowdedness" of map morale will be either better or worse.
On huge maps with lots of fungus (movement/settlement impediment) most likely worse.

When I find a good symmetrical map, I will do an ICS test Sparta vs Hive (with each having a neighbour to gobble up preferably) and see how it comes out.

[Nexii]

I'm pretty sure that B drones are capped at base size no matter what drones flag you use.  I think to have double the drones of base size with flag 8 on it'd require conquer drones, or ones from enemy probes.  Size drones are one less than the base size too even on Transcend.  Try it and see if you can find to the contrary guess.  It probably is the most important mechanic for ICS since +3 POLICE is 9 superdrone control or an approximate equivalent of 36 PSY per base.

In my FFA games I started to find that extreme aggression wasn't that worth it.  My reasoning was that since your economy doubles around every 20 turns in SMAC, if you don't conquer that same sized enemy in 20 turns then you're actually behind.  This tends to be hard unless you catch them in builder mode with little defense.  I boosted Fundamentalism in my SE set accordingly. I felt like it wasn't tempting enough to switch out of Police State for an ICS player (arguably, a little more worth it for a builder from Democracy).

[Yitzi]

The difference between industry and morale is that industry can be used all of the time, while morale - only when you are attacking.
Depending on the "crowdedness" of map morale will be either better or worse.
On huge maps with lots of fungus (movement/settlement impediment) most likely worse.

And Spartans are best on those "crowded" maps...though Hive also tends to favor early aggression.

I'm pretty sure that B drones are capped at base size no matter what drones flag you use.

Now that I think of it, you're right; I did leave that cap on, on the theory that if you're running high POLICE and low base size you're probably going to be conquering a lot and need it.  The purpose of flag 8 is more for bases with a lot of specialists than for a lot of bureaucracy drones.

In my FFA games I started to find that extreme aggression wasn't that worth it.  My reasoning was that since your economy doubles around every 20 turns in SMAC, if you don't conquer that same sized enemy in 20 turns then you're actually behind.

Only if you completely kill economic growth to wage war.

I boosted Fundamentalism in my SE set accordingly. I felt like it wasn't tempting enough to switch out of Police State for an ICS player (arguably, a little more worth it for a builder from Democracy).

I think that Fundamentalism isn't designed for ICS momentum play, but rather for when you're in a closely matched war and need the extra boost.

[Nexii]

Well, if you don't put 100% into military units for a war then you tend to lose to players that do.  Total war doctrine is pretty common in SMAC.  The game tends to be going from one extreme to another (builder/momentum) depending on pressure from other players.  However I would say there can be cold war type scenarios involving tech probing where neither side wants to break Pact due to the commerce benefits.  That would be more of the in-between scenario.

So how I modded Politics tier was more extreme, Democracy for boom, Police State for control/cold war, and Fundamentalism for actual war.  Default Democracy it felt like was superior in pretty much all situations (war and not).  PS was only used by Yang really and same for Fund with Spartans and even that only early game. 

[Yitzi]

Well, if you don't put 100% into military units for a war then you tend to lose to players that do.  Total war doctrine is pretty common in SMAC.  The game tends to be going from one extreme to another (builder/momentum) depending on pressure from other players.  However I would say there can be cold war type scenarios involving tech probing where neither side wants to break Pact due to the commerce benefits.  That would be more of the in-between scenario.

The other thing that would really affect things is a real defensive advantage.  Perhaps if the sensor bonus were increased by a large amount (though that would have an overly high effect on the danger posed by mind worms)?

[Nexii]

I play with intrinsic base defense at 50% and no bonus for infantry vs base.  I did try sensors at 50% also and it was sort of similar...though I feel a base should give as much defensive benefit as rough terrain.  This makes infantry inside a base have a chance especially with defensive modifiers.  This meant that PSI combat had to go to 2:1.  I also boosted up planet to be +/- 20% per rank, and made road movement a bit faster.  Faster road movement makes both infantry and mind worms better (mind worms then move even faster through fungus)