I'd appreciate if people could share examples of ICS.

[Earthmichael]

I recounted.  It takes 27 techs to have MMI, Bioengineering, and Environmental Economics on the SMACX tech tree.

It looks like it takes an additional 7 techs for Fusion Power, for a total of 34.  I think I must have missed a branch on Fusion Power the first time.  You said you got 32?  Do you want to recount and see if you also get 34?  Or am I counting a tech twice?

So actually, AKI had 34 techs at turn 80, since she had just gotten Fusion Power, and had started on Orbital Spaceflight.

And University had 39 advances, including the 5 extra techs listed.

I did not actually count the techs on the labs status screen, since I find it hard to track and usually miscount anyway during the scrolling; I just counted from the tech chart for the beelines I had achieved, and the extra techs, and it looks like I forgot a branch.

With University, I have 105 votes, spread over 10 cities.  Some of the cities are maxed; a few of the more recent cities are waiting for tree farms to cmplete, so that they have enough food to pop boom.  With Aki, the population is 98 with 9 cities; again, some cities are waiting for tree farms to boom.  These are some older games; I have since revised my strategy to use about 14 bases for the vets map, not worrying so much about exceeding the base limit for extra dtrones. 

I wish I had my saves for my more recent completed game with roninscg, but I lost them on a drive crash before I got them backed up.  I wonder if he still has some of these saves.

Because of the upheavel and other costs of pop booming, especialy with AKi, I will typically clump the booms.  For example, I think the most recent boom was with 7 cities.  I think I boomed again when an additional 3 or 4 cities were ready.  After the domes and Space Elevator are built, I have an extended boom until all of the cities get maxed again, which takes awhile since I am averaging slightly over 1 hydroponic satelite per turn, which feeds the boom a long time.

Cash for maintenance typically comes from the facility completion energy bonus.  I switch out of 100% labs when I want to gain energy for facility completion from a new tech that I have achieved, such as to build Fusion Labs everywhere.

Drone control starts with building all drone suppressing and psych multiplying facilities, and then converting to specialists on an as needed basis to achieve drone control.  Some games I run 10% psych, which is usually overkill, but I noticed on these two games I was running 100% labs.

P.S. I should warn you that I have the Flu right now, so my writing may be less coherent and my counting less accurate than perhaps ti might otherwise be.

[Yitzi]

I recounted.  It takes 27 techs to have MMI, Bioengineering, and Environmental Economics on the SMACX tech tree.

It looks like it takes an additional 7 techs for Fusion Power, for a total of 34.  I think I must have missed a branch on Fusion Power the first time.  You said you got 32?  Do you want to recount and see if you also get 34?  Or am I counting a tech twice?

Your count is totally off.  To get MMI, Bioengineering, and Environmental Economics requires:
-All tier 1 tech except Prog Psych (7 techs)
-In tier 2, HEC, Secrets of the Human Brain, Planetary Networks, Industrial Economics, Ethical Calculus, and Doctrine: Flexibility (6 techs)
-In tiers 3-4, Gene Splicing, Industrial Automation, Synthetic Fossil Fuels, Neural Grafting, and Ecological Engineering (5 techs)
-In tiers 5-6, Bio-Engineering, Doctrine: Air Power, Environmental Economics, and MMI (4 techs)
For a total of 22.
To get Fusion power as well then requires another 10 techs beyond that: Superconductor, Polymorphic Software, Optical Computers, Adaptive Doctrine, AMA, Doctrine: Loyalty, Intellectual Integrity, Cyberethics, PSA, and Fusion Power.  For a total of 32.

With University, I have 105 votes, spread over 10 cities.  Some of the cities are maxed; a few of the more recent cities are waiting for tree farms to cmplete, so that they have enough food to pop boom.  With Aki, the population is 98 with 9 cities; again, some cities are waiting for tree farms to boom.

So with around 100 population (You're not Lal, don't have the empath guild, and don't have clinical immortality, so population=votes), you're getting a bit over 600 tech per turn.  A forest with Free Market and no hybrid forest (as you don't have Planetary Economics) is worth 2 labs, so you should be getting roughly 200 research before multipliers, which is 500 after multipliers, and you get a 20% bonus from faction (40% if you run Knowledge), so yeah that makes sense.

Cash for maintenance typically comes from the facility completion energy bonus.  I switch out of 100% labs when I want to gain energy for facility completion from a new tech that I have achieved, such as to build Fusion Labs everywhere.

Ah...you know that that means your game is relying on a known bug?

Drone control starts with building all drone suppressing and psych multiplying facilities, and then converting to specialists on an as needed basis to achieve drone control.

Drone suppressing facilities only give you 5 drones suppressed; specialists will help (a lot with psych multiplying facilities), but if you're using forests without Planetary Economics (and thus only getting 2 nutrients per worker), then any specialists would mean you'd stop growing...or are you crawling nutrients to make up the difference?

[Earthmichael]

I do stop growing after I hit 14; I am limited to 14 anyway until I get domes, so no point in any more growth.  I have mostly forests, but there are a few rainy farms at most bases, and some bases have some food specials.  I think most bases have about 3 specialists, and I think about a 175% psych modifier.  I need to double check.  I might even have HGP, back when I used to think this was a fairly good project, before I started prioritizing ME above HGP.

The energy is going to come whether I rely on it or not.  If I need extra energy, for either maintenance or rapid building, I switch back to 50/50 with Uni, or even to 100% econ with Aki, until I get enough energy.  If the bug where somehow patched, then I would just change the balance of time where I allot energy to econ.

I am not even going to try to recount until I get over the flu.  Maybe I can have one of my kids look at it for me, and see what count they get.

But the point is still the same.  Whatever number of techs that turns out to be, Aki has just achieved them on turn 79, and University has 5 more techs than Aki.

[Yitzi]

I do stop growing after I hit 14; I am limited to 14 anyway until I get domes, so no point in any more growth.  I have mostly forests, but there are a few rainy farms at most bases, and some bases have some food specials.  I think most bases have about 3 specialists, and I think about a 175% psych modifier.

With 3 specialists (assuming 2-psych specialists*), that's 6 psych; with a +125% psych modifier (which is all you can get before you get either Homo Superior or Planetary Economics: +50% from hologram theaters, +50% from tree farms, +25% from research hospitals), that's 13 psych, or enough to suppress 6 drones.  Facilities are worth another 5 drones' worth.  So that will be enough, but only because turning a drone into a specialist (when all you have is drones) essentially nets you another drone's worth of drone control.  (If not for that fact, you'd need a lot more.)
And to make that work, you'd need 5 rainy farms (with farms with condensers counting double, a food special counting as 2 rainy farms, and if that food special is on a rainy square with a farm and condenser, it'll be enough by itself.)

*With the tech beelines you described, you're probably better off increasing your psych slightly and turning the specialists into engineers or thinkers (or librarians before those are available).

The energy is going to come whether I rely on it or not.  If I need extra energy, for either maintenance or rapid building, I switch back to 50/50 with Uni, or even to 100% econ with Aki, until I get enough energy.  If the bug where somehow patched, then I would just change the balance of time where I allot energy to econ.

As Uni, you're probably better off running something that will keep you stable and running it continuously, as that will reduce the loss due to high LABS.  But whichever way you do it, it will reduce your tech somewhat.

[Earthmichael]

These were two early games I found.

Most of my more recent games, I run 10% Psych.  See my AAR on Nomads.  Problem is, most of my recent games got abandoned by the other player; I don't mind someone conceding, but I don't like it when someone just stops responding to the game without conceding.  I think that is bad sportsmanship.  I had a great game recently with roninscg that went to completion.  Unfortunately, I lost all of the saves for that game.

I also build more bases now, but still widely spaced and terrain driven; I just don't worry much about the extra drone limit anymore.

I also now prioritize ME over HGP, although neither of these is a very high priority, with VW, WP, and PTS being higher priorities.

As for University stability, I generally switch between 50/50 and 100% labs.  If I am running Psych, I generally go 50 labs, 40 econ, 10 psych; or 90 labs, 10 psych.  With Aki, I can change my energy allocation freely.

[Yitzi]

As for University stability, I generally switch between 50/50 and 100% labs.

You'd get more in total if you moved the two options closer together, as 100% labs loses you more than 90% labs (and you could make up for it by being able to run the lower-labs amount for less time and/or having more labs that way.)

[Earthmichael]

At 100% labs, there is only 20% loss, due to high efficiency from Democracy.

[Yitzi]

At 100% labs, there is only 20% loss, due to high efficiency from Democracy.

Actually, having examined the formula a bit more, I think you're right; splitting between 50/50 and 100 is the best way.

[Earthmichael]

Your count is totally off.  To get MMI, Bioengineering, and Environmental Economics requires:
-All tier 1 tech except Prog Psych (7 techs)
-In tier 2, HEC, Secrets of the Human Brain, Planetary Networks, Industrial Economics, Ethical Calculus, and Doctrine: Flexibility (6 techs)
-In tiers 3-4, Gene Splicing, Industrial Automation, Synthetic Fossil Fuels, Neural Grafting, and Ecological Engineering (5 techs)
-In tiers 5-6, Bio-Engineering, Doctrine: Air Power, Environmental Economics, and MMI (4 techs)
For a total of 22.
To get Fusion power as well then requires another 10 techs beyond that: Superconductor, Polymorphic Software, Optical Computers, Adaptive Doctrine, AMA, Doctrine: Loyalty, Intellectual Integrity, Cyberethics, PSA, and Fusion Power.  For a total of 32.

You are exactly right; my initial count was way off.  (I must be getting a little bit better from my flu because now my count agrees with yours.)

So my first set of beelines to MMA, Bio-Engineering, and EE are 22 techs, just as you said.

My second beeline to Fusion Power is 10 techs, just as you said.

Can you verify that the next beeline to Super Tensile Solids is indeed 8 more techs as listed, or if I have missed something?
The 8 techs to Super Tensile Solids are (I believe):
Orbital Spaceflight
Organic Superlubricant
Adavanced Spaceflight
Superstring Theory
Silksteel Alloys
Monopole Magnet
Nanominiturization
Matter Compression

[Yitzi]

Can you verify that the next beeline to Super Tensile Solids is indeed 8 more techs as listed, or if I have missed something?
The 8 techs to Super Tensile Solids are (I believe):
Orbital Spaceflight
Organic Superlubricant
Adavanced Spaceflight
Superstring Theory
Silksteel Alloys
Monopole Magnet
Nanominiturization
Matter Compression

You missed:
-Nonlinear Mathematics; it is not needed for any of your previous beelines, but is needed for Superstring Theory.
-Advanced Subatomic Theory, needed for Silksteel Alloys.
-Nanometallurgy, which is also needed for Matter Compression.
-Doctrine: Initiative is needed for Nanometallurgy.
-As is Probability Mechanics.
-Which in turn requires Photon/Wave Mechanics.
-Which requires Applied Relativity.
-Finally, you forgot to list Super Tensile Solids itself.
So the beeline to Super Tensile Solids is 16 more techs, not 8, putting you at a total of 48, or a bit more than halfway through the tech tree.  (Of course, that's not a very even halfway; you're getting a level 10 tech, but still lack Progenitor Psych and Centauri Empathy.)

Another way you could calculate it is using this, which lists the techs needed to beeline to any one tech.  Thus, Super Tensile Solids itself is listed as 41 in SMAX (telling you right off that 32+8=40 is wrong).  Then you just have to find what you got for the other beelines that's not in there; Fusion Power, Doctrine: Air Power, and Industrial Automation are on the way to STS, so all that's left to MMI is Secrets of the Human Brain, Neural Grafting, and MMI itself.  Bio-engineering is another 1 (as you've covered its prerequisites already), and Environmental Economics is another 3 (for Centauri Ecology, Ecological Engineering, and Environmental Economics), for a total of 41+7=48.

[Kataphraktoi]

I dont really know if this counts as ICS but...

Here is a game i played back in 2005 i found from apolyton. Unfortunately i dont have any pics or savegames from any of the great players\games showing ICS, back in those days it didnt occur to me to save up such things so people in the future could see. I couldnt find his savegame, but a player called archaic achieved the same result as in this game but with a sub 2200 transcend mark. I learned the basic strategy while playing this game out. 

You will easily find ways to improve the efficiency of this game if you look through bases and SE so hopefully you can see some potential in this strategy and overlook the poor implementation here.

[Yitzi]

Actually, I meant something way earlier than that; ICS in the endgame is actually highly inefficient (since bases are among the least productive squares), except as needed to avoid the 99 population cap (and even that is only a substantial concern if crawling farm/enricher/condenser with satellites), or the 1-growth-per-turn cap when pop booming (which is not really such a big deal unless going really heavy on the nutrients as well.)

[Kataphraktoi]

ICS is at its ultimate strength in the endgame, the only limiting factor on your economic capacity at this point is the 1 pop\turn growth limit. The more bases you have, the more transcend specialists you will have. You must understand with nutrient satelites every base can be made to have +2 food so 10 bases will simply grow twice as fast as 5 bases. Notice this game last only 117 turns...i would like to see your counter example game doing anything similar within 117 turns with any other base placement strategy. 

Assuming you agree this is ICS, i would point out i was placing the bases in that fashion from turn 1 and expanded the landmass heavily;that is, i basically had filled all available space with bases much earlier.

[Yitzi]

ICS is at its ultimate strength in the endgame, the only limiting factor on your economic capacity at this point is the 1 pop\turn growth limit.

No, there's the fact that a citizen eats 2 nutrients and is only worth 1 from satellites, so you're capped at 1 per nutrient.  This is a limit, especially if condenser/farm/enricher is nerfed to only be worth 5 nutrients each (at which point farm/enricher/solar+raise+echelons is actually worth more, at least if you don't have a difference due to being able to crawl only the single-resource one).

i would like to see your counter example game doing anything similar within 117 turns with any other base placement strategy. 

I'm not such an expert player...but why should you score it based on winning quickly, rather than winning against difficult opposition or winning with a really high score?  ICS is definitely the best for winning fast, but that's ok, as long as it's not the best period.

[Kataphraktoi]

No, you can get 2 nutrients per pop from satelites. Assuming you have an Aerospace Complex in the base. This is basic!


Im not scoring the game based on winning quickly but in concrete economic terms. You cannot simply dismiss it as an inefficient setup when you cannot show a more efficient setup.