I found a bug (either a major one or a minor one, I'm not sure.)

[Yitzi]

According to the datalinks, social engineering table, etc., the benefits of positive economy look like this:
1: +1 energy per base.
2: +1 energy per square.
3: +1 energy per square, +1 commerce rating.
4: +1 energy per square, +2 energy/base, +2 commerce rating.
5: +1 energy per square, +4 energy/base, +3 commerce rating.

Now, I'm not exactly sure what "commerce rating" means and so I didn't check that, but I did check for the rest of it, and got the following results"
1: +1 energy per base (in the base square)
2: +1 energy per square
3: +1 energy per square, +2 energy/base
4: +1 energy per square, +4 energy/base

So I'm not sure if the mistake is in the actual effect or in the description, anyone have any ideas about that?

[Kirov]

I wouldn't say such mistakes are actually bugs, as I think there is more stuff like this. IIRC, +3 POLICE says the police effect is doubled when in fact it means +1 drone quelled (which makes a difference for Non-Lethal units, which quell three not four drones).

But I checked and you're right. Also funny thing, +5 and +6 ECON do not confer any further energy per tile/base tile. I wonder what is the breakdown for commerce rating. It needs to be tested... Gods, where's my free time.

"Commerce rating" is that bonus income you get from treaties and pacts. It's when your base says: Gaians +4 Treaty (they get +3). Morgan starts with +1 bonus, planetary gov'nor confers another one, there are six techs which increase it, as well as good commerce rating.

[Yitzi]

I wouldn't say such mistakes are actually bugs, as I think there is more stuff like this. IIRC, +3 POLICE says the police effect is doubled when in fact it means +1 drone quelled (which makes a difference for Non-Lethal units, which quell three not four drones).

No, that's a slight miscommunication; they may be using the D&D definition of "doubled", meaning +1 to the multiplier (so two doublings, such as +3 POLICE and non-lethal methods, are a total of a tripling.)  This is a case where the meaning is absolutely clear and what it says does not match what happened.

Also funny thing, +5 and +6 ECON do not confer any further energy per tile/base tile. I wonder what is the breakdown for commerce rating.

I checked, and it seems that +5 ECON does give a bonus to commerce, and +2 ECON does not, i.e. the bonus commerce rating noted is correct.  Also, it seems that negative ECONOMY does hurt your commerce at first, but that goes away once you get commerce-boosting techs.

"Commerce rating" is that bonus income you get from treaties and pacts. It's when your base says: Gaians +4 Treaty (they get +3). Morgan starts with +1 bonus, planetary gov'nor confers another one, there are six techs which increase it, as well as good commerce rating.

It seems to be a bit more complicated than that; planetary governor gets a flat +1, whereas the bonus for high ECONOMY or being Morgan (or, I presume, the commerce techs) is proportional.

[Kirov]

No, that's a slight miscommunication; they may be using the D&D definition of "doubled", meaning +1 to the multiplier (so two doublings, such as +3 POLICE and non-lethal methods, are a total of a tripling.)  This is a case where the meaning is absolutely clear and what it says does not match what happened.

I see what you mean, although for me the meaning of doubling is also absolutely clear and the game is just plain wrong here. But let's leave it at that.

It seems to be a bit more complicated than that; planetary governor gets a flat +1, whereas the bonus for high ECONOMY or being Morgan (or, I presume, the commerce techs) is proportional.

What do you mean by 'flat +1'? +1 energy from one deal in one base? As far as I know, there is one COMMERCE rating, increased as described above, and it affects the energy output from treaties proportionally. I just checked a savegame I played recently and being elected the Governor got me +1/4 per deal and in one base, an entire new deal appeared. Before there was 'Sparta 16 (they get 14)', now is 'Angels 19 (they get 16), Sparta 19 (they get 16)'. So I imagine it works like the other commerce bonuses. And even if not, it's still proportional. However, it's hard to manipulate this factor in the scenario editor, because as far as I checked, unlearning commerce techs via the editor doesn't decrease your commerce rating to the previous value.

[Yitzi]

What do you mean by 'flat +1'? +1 energy from one deal in one base? As far as I know, there is one COMMERCE rating, increased as described above, and it affects the energy output from treaties proportionally. I just checked a savegame I played recently and being elected the Governor got me +1/4 per deal and in one base, an entire new deal appeared. Before there was 'Sparta 16 (they get 14)', now is 'Angels 19 (they get 16), Sparta 19 (they get 16)'.

Ah, that would seem to imply otherwise...the datalinks imply what I said (not that that's worth that much) and a bit of testing I did seems to suggest as such, but your experience seems more conclusive.

So I imagine it works like the other commerce bonuses. And even if not, it's still proportional. However, it's hard to manipulate this factor in the scenario editor, because as far as I checked, unlearning commerce techs via the editor doesn't decrease your commerce rating to the previous value.

Actually, it, or changing your social engineering, does, but it doesn't show until you either:
(a) End the turn, or
(b) Learn (probably from ctrl-F3) a tech that gives you a social engineering option and then use the resulting prompt to enter the social engineering window (you don't need to change anything), or sometimes
(c)  Moving around the workers on the city map; sometimes this works, sometimes it doesn't.

[Kirov]

I checked the datalinks and you're right, the Governor effect is said to be at a different place in the formula... if the formula is to be believed. It's not just +1 to the final output, I'm sure of that.

I have little trust for the info in the datalinks since their screw-up with the ecodamage formula. There's loads of major and minor mistakes in the datalinks, which is why I'm not surprised at all with this ECON stuff. If a piece of info is not tested by me or some devoted player, I always take it with a grain of salt. And I recommend the same to everyone else.

[Kirov]

You're right, the commerce may be decreased after unlearning the tech and hitting the end turn! Cool, thanks, that's gonna be useful.

As for the Gov'nor thing - my example was taken from very late game from the "King of the Hill" scenario. That's why the numbers like 19 ec. In regular games it may be tougher to notice. Still, I checked and it definitely works differently than the commerce techs, i.e. its effects are way stronger. Interesting. I wonder if the Morgan inherent bonus works the same as the commerce tech bonus...

[Lord Avalon]

"Police effect doubled" is strictly true.  1 drone countered + (1 extra drone countered for police effect x2) = 3 drones countered.

[Kirov]

I checked, and it seems that +5 ECON does give a bonus to commerce, and +2 ECON does not, i.e. the bonus commerce rating noted is correct.  Also, it seems that negative ECONOMY does hurt your commerce at first, but that goes away once you get commerce-boosting techs.

Further data from tests:

1) Yes, bonus commerce from +3/+5 ECON does work as intended.

2) Morgan commerce bonus has the same effect as any commerce tech.

3) I'm quite sure that negative ECONOMY does not confer any hit to commerce rating.

[Kirov]

"Police effect doubled" is strictly true.  1 drone countered + (1 extra drone countered for police effect x2) = 3 drones countered.

I think you misunderstood the police effect. Police effect doesn't apply only to the results of non-lethal special ability, but to any military units which can serve as police. And in both cases there is no multiplier, but +1 effect which Yitzi mentioned.

And it's really not just me, almost all new players I knew expected that the sentence "A is doubled" means "(A)x2", so non-lethal units should quell 4 drones. Sorry guys...

[Yitzi]

3) I'm quite sure that negative ECONOMY does not confer any hit to commerce rating.

Try starting a game playing as Yang, use the scenario editor to make a pact with Deirdre, place solars and echelons plus energy bonuses around both players' starting bases to produce a lot of energy, and see what the commerce looks like.  If negative ECONOMY has no effect on commerce rating, then both should get the same commerce.

[Lord Avalon]

"Police effect doubled" is strictly true.  1 drone countered + (1 extra drone countered for police effect x2) = 3 drones countered.

I think you misunderstood the police effect. Police effect doesn't apply only to the results of non-lethal special ability, but to any military units which can serve as police. And in both cases there is no multiplier, but +1 effect which Yitzi mentioned.

And I think you misunderstood me.  Another way to say "strictly" would be "narrowly," as in the narrow definition of "police effect" to mean what effect the non-lethal special ability has (and such a unit getting the designation of "police"), rather than the broad sense of any military unit acting as police.

And it's really not just me, almost all new players I knew expected that the sentence "A is doubled" means "(A)x2", so non-lethal units should quell 4 drones. Sorry guys...

I will agree that it could have been phrased better.

[Yitzi]

And I think you misunderstood me.  Another way to say "strictly" would be "narrowly," as in the narrow definition of "police effect" to mean what effect the non-lethal special ability has (and such a unit getting the designation of "police"), rather than the broad sense of any military unit acting as police.

But then it still doesn't properly describe the effect, as it doesn't mention the fact that it doubles the effectiveness of units without the Police ability.

[Lord Avalon]

Ah, I see.  I was focusing on the regular vs non-lethal issue and missing the forest.  Oops.

[Kirov]

Ah, I see.  I was focusing on the regular vs non-lethal issue and missing the forest.  Oops.

Yep, that's the thing. To sum up - regular unit suppresses 1 drone, non-lethal unit - 2 drones. Under +3 POLICE, they suppress 2 drones and 3 drones respectively.