Author Topic: Faction ranking  (Read 30131 times)

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Offline Hagen0

Re: Faction ranking
« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2012, 11:54:21 PM »
Alright, my description of the mechanics is faulty. It's been some time. Your description is correct.

My conclusion, however, stands. Your example actually proves my point. The example Peacekeeper base has one worker, the Spartan base has only normal drones. Thats an advantage of 2 Psych for Lal when he should have 6! Add one more specialist and Lals Psych advantage vanishes entirely. I was only off by one specialist. If you have a single bureaucracy drone the threshhold where Lals Psych advantage disappears drops to 3 specialists.

I also disagree with your point about psych spending. Lals talent bonus would be quite good if he could actually use it in a reasonable way (ie. not completely excluding specialists). For instance, it would mean Lal could boom with less infrastructure than other factions.

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Re: Faction ranking
« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2012, 12:07:00 AM »
Welcome to AC2, Hagen.

Offline Yitzi

Re: Faction ranking
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2012, 11:43:23 PM »
Alright, my description of the mechanics is faulty. It's been some time. Your description is correct.

My conclusion, however, stands. Your example actually proves my point. The example Peacekeeper base has one worker, the Spartan base has only normal drones. Thats an advantage of 2 Psych for Lal when he should have 6! Add one more specialist and Lals Psych advantage vanishes entirely.

That's simply because the Spartans (or whoever the non-Lal person is) are benefiting from the fact that when all you've got is drones (before psych/facilities/police), specialists decrease drones.  Which occurs fairly early on Transcend, not so early on easier difficulty levels.

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I also disagree with your point about psych spending. Lals talent bonus would be quite good if he could actually use it in a reasonable way (ie. not completely excluding specialists). For instance, it would mean Lal could boom with less infrastructure than other factions.

Yes, it would make it easier for Lal to boom early...but that doesn't require him to completely remove specialists.  In fact, it's helped by a moderate number of specialists, as more specialists means less drones and less talents, and for booming eliminating drones is often harder (once you get to a decent size) than getting talents.

Offline ete

Re: Faction ranking
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2013, 11:50:22 PM »
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Same as above. Sure, you can overrun another player if you happen to be placed very close to him. But balanced MP games never do that and you have to assume that your opponents have time to get to midgame relatively undisturbed. Otherwise, what you’re doing is called rush and you may know from Starcraft that it’s a very risky business. If it fails, you’re down.

Firstly, I feel that the best way to get a balanced MP game is just have a random map and random starting positions, and on average it'll be balanced.
If your supposed "balanced MP games" mean that some factions are underpowered, that's not very balanced, is it?  The factions are meant to be balanced on the assumption that you don't know how long you have until you run into any particular faction; that's how the game is meant to be played.

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When I present my opinion on factions, I always assume that you’re not playing settings explicitly beneficial to such a faction. Yes, Cult is a very good faction for a tiny planet with abundant life forms. But put it on the Vets map and it can only cry for help from the Planetmind.

I'd count the Vets map as settings explicitly beneficial to builder factions.  For "default" settings I'd either use the map of Planet (random start positions) with default rules, or a randomly generated map taking the "middle" approach on map customization and with default rules.

Have been mulling this over on and off, and I pretty much agree with this assessment. Especially after trying out Cult in a v AI game (large random map, 50%-30% land, several laughably broken enemy factions, middle choices for everything else), I found it remarkably easy to overcome them because I got to much more pods than anyone else, and even though my bases were pretty weak.. I overran one foe quickly, made another surrender, then was in a comfortable position. Killed off the custom alien sea faction, and bullied everyone into a political win. It was a very different game, but it was arguably easier than the standard builder style. And I imagine holding off a well played +4 Planet MW swarm which is constantly replenished for free would be extremely tough challenge even for a human. Of course if it's a long way away without much of a fungal bridge, or separated by sea, then you're going to fall behind and be overwhelmed.

Anyway, I propose having the formula spit out not a single "This Is How Good The Faction Is" result, but spit out several. Most of the comments by MPers here has been very much geared towards the long term peaceful building/teching ability of the factions, so I'll use this it a guide to what the Builder Rating should look like. If I could get some comments about how the factions should be ordered in:

Momentum Rating
Basically, how factions do if they start fairly close on the same landmass, and don't have that much time. They have to depend on only a small number of bases and not many units. Should this be split into offensive and defensive, or are factions good at defending early attacks always roughly equally good at attacking early themselves?

Hybrid Rating
How a faction does if it starts some distance apart on a well connected landmass (no single chokepoint which can be held by the defender) or very closeby on different landmasses. Some time to prepare, but won't have had time to build up fully by the time there's conflict. Same question about splitting between offensive and defensive.


This should more thoroughly reflect the advantages and disadvantages of each faction, since which factions do well depends massively on how quickly the conflict occurs. I'd also like to allow some map variables to influence the ratings. For example, how much native life there is obviously has a massive effect on factions with Planet bonuses, and sea-based factions are happy when they've got more oceans.

Offline Yitzi

Re: Faction ranking
« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2013, 01:41:12 AM »
Have been mulling this over on and off, and I pretty much agree with this assessment. Especially after trying out Cult in a v AI game (large random map, 50%-30% land, several laughably broken enemy factions, middle choices for everything else), I found it remarkably easy to overcome them because I got to much more pods than anyone else, and even though my bases were pretty weak.. I overran one foe quickly, made another surrender, then was in a comfortable position. Killed off the custom alien sea faction, and bullied everyone into a political win. It was a very different game, but it was arguably easier than the standard builder style. And I imagine holding off a well played +4 Planet MW swarm which is constantly replenished for free would be extremely tough challenge even for a human. Of course if it's a long way away without much of a fungal bridge, or separated by sea, then you're going to fall behind and be overwhelmed.

Even so, you can often overrun one or two enemies to get an advantage that lets you push the rest of the way.
Also, if you mod the game to make PLANET more important to ecodamage (reduce or remove clean minerals, and increase the general divisor and maybe the mineral divisor as well), then Cult becomes a fairly decent builder faction, as it can run Planned while still keeping low ecodamage.  It's still not a great techer or moneymaker, of course (well, except via planetpearls), but should be able to hold its own until it gets brood pits (and then overruns everything.)

Aliens can be tough for Cult, though, simply because they start with the ability to make resonance-armor units.

Offline ete

Re: Faction ranking
« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2013, 10:12:40 AM »
"Even so, you can often overrun one or two enemies to get an advantage that lets you push the rest of the way."
Yep, sure, but this would be based on whether there's early conflict or not. A Cult sitting alone with no one to take over is going to have trouble, even with there super pod popping abilities.

And.. depending on how the mod's done (community involvement and acceptance mostly) there could be an alternate version which ranks factions by power in it.

Offline Yitzi

Re: Faction ranking
« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2013, 04:03:10 PM »
"Even so, you can often overrun one or two enemies to get an advantage that lets you push the rest of the way."
Yep, sure, but this would be based on whether there's early conflict or not. A Cult sitting alone with no one to take over is going to have trouble, even with there super pod popping abilities.

True, although later in the game their disadvantages become less significant (as Market becomes less powerful as compared to Green), but the absence of early conflict definitely favors builder factions.  (Of course, a Cult sitting alone with no one to take over still could do well if all the builder factions find themselves near people who want to take them over, although Yang is quite good at early-game defense while still being a better builder than the Cult.)

Offline Earthmichael

Re: Faction ranking
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2013, 06:05:42 AM »
I am late chiming in here, but this is my view:

Teir 0: Caretakers, Usurpers

Either of the aliens under human control is much more powerful than any other faction by a large margin.  They are definitely stronger than Uni; I would be happy to play someone 1 on 1 who thinks otherwise.  Normally banned from multiplayer games.

Tier 1: Uni

Nobody researches better at the start of the game than Uni.  Faster research means faster to Planned and Wealth, earlier Crawlers, earlier Recycling Centers, etc.

Tier 2A: Aki, Morgan

These are the next best researchers.  Morgan starts out much faster in research than Aki, but Aki's ability  to shift to 100% research after Democracy can even things out in the long run.

Tier 2B: Pirates

On any map with sufficient water, Pirates can be very effective, particularly if the start for all of the players includes a couple of colony pods, a former, and a scout.  (With a single pod start I would downgrade them by a tier.)  Water bases start off with a free pressure dome (recycling center), giving them an extra 1/1/1 from turn 1.  And with the speed of the colony pods, there is no reason not to put colony pods on or near the special resources. Pirates typically have an easier time contacting the other factions, providing early tech trade and treaty/pact energy. 

Pirates have an easier with defense, since few players can commit many resources to the sea and still maintain a land force.  Also, sea bases cannot be taken with land or normal air dropped units, so even if copters kill the defenders, the attacker must still bring a ship or marine to capture the base.  With a mostly water map with small islands, Pirates dominate, and would be rated as tier 1. 

I personally prefer to ban Pirates from most multiplayer games, although I once played a very fun 4 player game where all 4 players were Pirates.  The reason for this ban is that the Pirates often intentionally foster rising water levels by ecodamage and atrocities, and I hate the micromanagement necessary to deal with rising water.

Tier 3A: Drones, Hive

Drones and Hive can build like nobody else, but it takes them forever to research something useful to build, and you can only build so many colony pods before the drone penalty makes it impossible to expand further.  If they can team up with someone who will feed them some early techs, they can become unstoppable, and I would rate them tier 1.  I saw one scenario where Hive was given Planetary Datalinks at the start, which mitigates their main disadvantage.

Tier 3B: Gaia

Gaia can be pretty powerful, especially on a map with lots of fungus and lots of lifeforms.  The efficiency bonus can allow a shift to 100% research with either Democracy or Green.  A 75% chance of capture with Green is very nice, along with a 100% chance of first capture.

Tier 4: PK, Angels

These can be good factions if you bring their strengths to bear, but they don't have anything to boost them much in the early game.  Angels benefit from a small map where they can put their probe ability to use early.

Tier 5: Spartans, Believers

These factions need someone to kill early.  Otherwise, the researchers and builders will be too built up for a successful attack.  On a small map, they can be good, but otherwise, the production penalty and research penalty, respectively, weaken them too much.

Tier 6: Prophets

Huge penalties without much to show for them.  In most any circumstance I can envision, Gaia would be a better choice.  Even on the most favorable map, with heavy fungus and native life, this faction just does not measure up.

AI:

The AI stink with any faction.  If you give the AI a hugely powerful faction like the aliens, and plant them close to a human player so that they can pound on the human player before he gets a chance to really build, then they can be a threat.  Otherwise, any AI player is just fodder for human takeover.

Offline Yitzi

Re: Faction ranking
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2013, 12:13:51 AM »
Normally banned from multiplayer games.

Although as an alternative when it's not 1v1, you could just ban them from cooperative victory and the very fact that they're so powerful will make them a threat that people will form alliances to stop (or at least knock down).

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Tier 2A: Aki, Morgan

These are the next best researchers.  Morgan starts out much faster in research than Aki, but Aki's ability  to shift to 100% research after Democracy can even things out in the long run.

Actually, Morgan can shift to 100% research as well once he gets Green; he still ends up as a weaker researcher than Aki, though, since he then needs to run Wealth to get +1 energy/square, and Aki can run Knowledge for a total of +40% research.

However, with enough treaties/pacts and Global Trade Pact, I think Morgan can actually become a better researcher than Zak (though not in the early game), and even Aki beats him only because she can run 100% and in order to do the same he has to lower himself to his native +1 Commerce boost.

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Tier 2B: Pirates

On any map with sufficient water, Pirates can be very effective, particularly if the start for all of the players includes a couple of colony pods, a former, and a scout.  (With a single pod start I would downgrade them by a tier.)  Water bases start off with a free pressure dome (recycling center), giving them an extra 1/1/1 from turn 1.  And with the speed of the colony pods, there is no reason not to put colony pods on or near the special resources. Pirates typically have an easier time contacting the other factions, providing early tech trade and treaty/pact energy. 

And of course sea squares can be extremely high-value (beating out land squares before Advanced Ecological Engineering.)  I think sometime I might want to play against you, Pirates vs. University, with global warming removed and no other mods, to see how things play out.

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If they can team up with someone who will feed them some early techs, they can become unstoppable, and I would rate them tier 1.

Nastiest of all is Aki/Drones; Aki feeds the Drones tech, the Drones feed Aki built-up and high-population bases.

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Angels benefit from a small map where they can put their probe ability to use early.

Angels are also a lot stronger with more players (especially high-research ones), allowing their techshare ability to really come in well (they can either run 70% ECONOMY to fund probe team action and let techshare put them around the middle, or run 70% LABS and avoid the usual beelines, letting them get a lot of tech by getting half of it from everyone else.)

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These factions need someone to kill early.  Otherwise, the researchers and builders will be too built up for a successful attack.  On a small map, they can be good, but otherwise, the production penalty and research penalty, respectively, weaken them too much.

Spartans actually can do fairly well even without someone to kill early, as long as the researchers and builders (except Yang) have someone to kill them early.

Offline Earthmichael

Re: Faction ranking
« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2013, 01:04:22 AM »
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Tier 2A: Aki, Morgan

These are the next best researchers.  Morgan starts out much faster in research than Aki, but Aki's ability  to shift to 100% research after Democracy can even things out in the long run.

Actually, Morgan can shift to 100% research as well once he gets Green; he still ends up as a weaker researcher than Aki, though, since he then needs to run Wealth to get +1 energy/square, and Aki can run Knowledge for a total of +40% research.


However, with enough treaties/pacts and Global Trade Pact, I think Morgan can actually become a better researcher than Zak (though not in the early game), and even Aki beats him only because she can run 100% and in order to do the same he has to lower himself to his native +1 Commerce boost.

Aki can run either FM/Wealth/Democracy  (which provides a 10% production bonus), or FM/Knowledge/Democracy, both at !00% labs.  The Knowledge choice will probably provide a bit more research (easy to temporarily shift from one to another and check the lab status to see how much is gained), but the Wealth choice gets a 10% production bonus, so you have to weigh out your situation and see which one you want more.  EIther way, the combination of FM and 100% labs makes for a great researcher!

If Morgan shifts to Democracy/Green/Knowledge, to run 100% labs, he comes up short compared to Aki running Democracy/FM/Knowledge by 20% I believe.

Offline Yitzi

Re: Faction ranking
« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2013, 02:47:38 AM »
Aki can run either FM/Wealth/Democracy  (which provides a 10% production bonus), or FM/Knowledge/Democracy, both at !00% labs.  The Knowledge choice will probably provide a bit more research (easy to temporarily shift from one to another and check the lab status to see how much is gained), but the Wealth choice gets a 10% production bonus, so you have to weigh out your situation and see which one you want more.  EIther way, the combination of FM and 100% labs makes for a great researcher!

Definitely; after the early game, she's the best researcher in the game.

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If Morgan shifts to Democracy/Green/Knowledge, to run 100% labs, he comes up short compared to Aki running Democracy/FM/Knowledge by 20% I believe.

Quite a bit more, as he also doesn't get +1 energy per square that way.  To keep that +1 energy per square without running FM, he has to run Wealth, which puts him 40% behind Aki.  (He does, however, get better commerce, though it's not enough.)

Offline WeMustConsentAI

Re: Faction ranking
« Reply #41 on: March 09, 2021, 12:34:03 PM »
For multiplayer:
1. Morgan and University
2. Peacekeepers and Drones
3. Hive, Gaians, Consciousness, Angels
4. Believers, Pirates, Spartans
5. Cult

Economic advantages are the most important for a succesful game. Hence the top ranking of Morgan, UoP, PKs and Drones. They can popboom, run free market and have social engineering benefits in stuff like Research, Economy, Industry, or extra talents/less drones.

Hive, Gaians, Consciousness can't do all of those. Gaians can't run FM, Consciousness can't popboom and Hive can't do either but has a high Industry rating and free Police State to compensate. Angels can both popboom and run FM, but their SE traits don't directly aid economic development.

The last two tiers all have some penalty in SE factors like Research, Efficiency, Growth, Economy and/or Industry. The Cult can't even run FM on top of that. Edit: Well, they can, but they can't get +2 Econ. Same with the Hive.

You certainly cover the basics of what a human player needs for any remotely successful game, but with flaws as explained below.

1. Chiron ("Planet") needs to be thought of too; and the PLANET/POLICE hit of the Market Economy is completely atrocious. High
populations and grandiose INDUSTRY also damage the Planetary Ecosystem (in other ways, yes; but nevertheless, they still do).
2. Early to mid game pop-boom requires the Planned Economy, which the Morganites can never use. Therefore, they can only do the pop-boom tactic in the late game, when they get the Eudemonic Future; and by then, Chiron has become so suspicious of the civilized world, that at least one Fungal Bloom will be experienced at least once every several turns no matter how optimized your Engineering Scores (i.e. minimum INDUSTRY/GROWTH and/or maximum PLANET). This can make your harvested squares go from being powerhouses of civilized activity, to completely unharvest-able wilderness. It's particularly bad with high Engineering Marks in things like GROWTH, INDUSTRY & ECONOMY, since the squares, in question, have to actually produce their respective resources to make those areas of any real use. Also, the Morganites have terribly low Habitat limits until you can get the proper technologies.
3. Energy lost to Inefficiency does literally nothing. Therefore, the Green Economy can be just as powerful as the Market one; and with less overall drawbacks. The Gaians have a direct EFFICIENCY/PLANET Bonus, whereas the Peacekeepers, the Morganites and the University do not. (In fact, the Peacekeepers begin with a slight EFFICIENCY Penalty that's only counter-able once they can get out of Frontier Politics, Survival Values and Simple Economics. On the other hand, the Planned Economy does give a nasty penalty to EFFICIENCY unless you're the Hive. [At least anyone else can be a Democracy in order to counter this.])
4. Harkening back to reasoning #1, there is occasionally no other way to deal with Drones directly, especially when you can't afford to deal with them indirectly (i.e. convert enough Workers into Talents). The Spartans, for example, gain a POLICE bonus by default; and Police State Politics & the Thought Control Future give more, but with a severe EFFICIENCY drawback except for the Hive. The Thought Control Future Society, on the other hand, has a crippling SUPPORT penalty unless you have The Cloning Vats. (At least you can still use Clean Reactors by then, since those units never cost anything to maintain.)
5. You forgot to mention something else about the University: they've got extra Drones until you can suppress them directly.
6. At least the Cyber-guys have direct bonuses to EFFICIENCY and RESEARCH. On the other hand, it can be pretty hard to deal with their GROWTH penalty unless you know exactly what you're doing. They can also have the Cybernetic Future without drawbacks.
7. The Data Angels only specialize directly in PROBE, which is only useful if you like to use Probe Teams. Otherwise, PROBE is made a moot point if you can get The Hunter-Seeker Algorithm.
8. You also forgot to mention the Future Society options at all. With Eudemonic, Wealth and Market, you can have either +3 or +4 ECONOMY, even as either the Hive or the Cult. With that much ECONOMY, there's really no way to get any richer unless you've got enough EFFICIENCY to otherwise be able to actually use all of that Energy. Anyone else meanwhile, is guaranteed to have an insane +5 ECONOMY. (The Morganites would have +6; but since the bonus doesn't stack after +5, it won't actually do anything. The same goes for every other Engineering Score except EFFICIENCY itself. This makes both Knowledge Values and the Cybernetic Future as either the University or the Cyborgs only good until +5 RESEARCH [-50% Labs Costs, no further stacking]. As either the Gaians or the Cult {or anyone else for that matter}, it's too little too late to truly stop the Mind Worms anyway. [At least they won't eat you alive, however.])
9. On top of all that, the Free Drones can't even have a Green Economy.
10. You made no direct mention of the Values Engineering systems. This is important because 1) the Angels can't use Power; 2) the Spartans and the Cult can never use Wealth, and 3) the Believers can't utilize Knowledge.
11. At that, a higher population creates extra Drones anyways unless you can suppress them.

These are all of the reasons that I can really think of now. Edits will be made as necessary.

Offline WeMustConsentAI

Re: Faction ranking
« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2021, 12:00:07 PM »
For multiplayer:
1. Morgan and University
2. Peacekeepers and Drones
3. Hive, Gaians, Consciousness, Angels
4. Believers, Pirates, Spartans
5. Cult

Economic advantages are the most important for a succesful game. Hence the top ranking of Morgan, UoP, PKs and Drones. They can popboom, run free market and have social engineering benefits in stuff like Research, Economy, Industry, or extra talents/less drones.

Hive, Gaians, Consciousness can't do all of those. Gaians can't run FM, Consciousness can't popboom and Hive can't do either but has a high Industry rating and free Police State to compensate. Angels can both popboom and run FM, but their SE traits don't directly aid economic development.

The last two tiers all have some penalty in SE factors like Research, Efficiency, Growth, Economy and/or Industry. The Cult can't even run FM on top of that. Edit: Well, they can, but they can't get +2 Econ. Same with the Hive.

You certainly cover the basics of what a human player needs for any remotely successful game, but with flaws as explained below.

1. Chiron ("Planet") needs to be thought of too; and the PLANET/POLICE hit of the Market Economy is completely atrocious. High
populations and grandiose INDUSTRY also damage the Planetary Ecosystem (in other ways, yes; but nevertheless, they still do).
2. Early to mid game pop-boom requires the Planned Economy, which the Morganites can never use. Therefore, they can only do the pop-boom tactic in the late game, when they get the Eudemonic Future; and by then, Chiron has become so suspicious of the civilized world, that at least one Fungal Bloom will be experienced at least once every several turns no matter how optimized your Engineering Scores (i.e. minimum INDUSTRY/GROWTH and/or maximum PLANET). This can make your harvested squares go from being powerhouses of civilized activity, to completely unharvest-able wilderness. It's particularly bad with high Engineering Marks in things like GROWTH, INDUSTRY & ECONOMY, since the squares, in question, have to actually produce their respective resources to make those areas of any real use. Also, the Morganites have terribly low Habitat limits until you can get the proper technologies.
3. Energy lost to Inefficiency does literally nothing. Therefore, the Green Economy can be just as powerful as the Market one; and with less overall drawbacks. The Gaians have a direct EFFICIENCY/PLANET Bonus, whereas the Peacekeepers, the Morganites and the University do not. (In fact, the Peacekeepers begin with a slight EFFICIENCY Penalty that's only counter-able once they can get out of Frontier Politics, Survival Values and Simple Economics. On the other hand, the Planned Economy does give a nasty penalty to EFFICIENCY unless you're the Hive. [At least anyone else can be a Democracy in order to counter this.])
4. Harkening back to reasoning #1, there is occasionally no other way to deal with Drones directly, especially when you can't afford to deal with them indirectly (i.e. convert enough Workers into Talents). The Spartans, for example, gain a POLICE bonus by default; and Police State Politics & the Thought Control Future give more, but with a severe EFFICIENCY drawback except for the Hive. The Thought Control Future Society, on the other hand, has a crippling SUPPORT penalty unless you have The Cloning Vats. (At least you can still use Clean Reactors by then, since those units never cost anything to maintain.)
5. You forgot to mention something else about the University: they've got extra Drones until you can suppress them directly.
6. At least the Cyber-guys have direct bonuses to EFFICIENCY and RESEARCH. On the other hand, it can be pretty hard to deal with their GROWTH penalty unless you know exactly what you're doing. They can also have the Cybernetic Future without drawbacks.
7. The Data Angels only specialize directly in PROBE, which is only useful if you like to use Probe Teams. Otherwise, PROBE is made a moot point if you can get The Hunter-Seeker Algorithm.
8. You also forgot to mention the Future Society options at all. With Eudemonic, Wealth and Market, you can have either +3 or +4 ECONOMY, even as either the Hive or the Cult. With that much ECONOMY, there's really no way to get any richer unless you've got enough EFFICIENCY to otherwise be able to actually use all of that Energy. Anyone else meanwhile, is guaranteed to have an insane +5 ECONOMY. (The Morganites would have +6; but since the bonus doesn't stack after +5, it won't actually do anything. The same goes for every other Engineering Score except EFFICIENCY itself. This makes both Knowledge Values and the Cybernetic Future as either the University or the Cyborgs only good until +5 RESEARCH [-50% Labs Costs, no further stacking]. As either the Gaians or the Cult {or anyone else for that matter}, it's too little too late to truly stop the Mind Worms anyway. [At least they won't eat you alive, however.])
9. On top of all that, the Free Drones can't even have a Green Economy.
10. You made no direct mention of the Values Engineering systems. This is important because 1) the Angels can't use Power; 2) the Spartans and the Cult can never use Wealth, and 3) the Believers can't utilize Knowledge.
11. At that, a higher population creates extra Drones anyways unless you can suppress them.

These are all of the reasons that I can really think of now. Edits will be made as necessary.
For multiplayer:
1. Morgan and University
2. Peacekeepers and Drones
3. Hive, Gaians, Consciousness, Angels
4. Believers, Pirates, Spartans
5. Cult

Economic advantages are the most important for a succesful game. Hence the top ranking of Morgan, UoP, PKs and Drones. They can popboom, run free market and have social engineering benefits in stuff like Research, Economy, Industry, or extra talents/less drones.

Hive, Gaians, Consciousness can't do all of those. Gaians can't run FM, Consciousness can't popboom and Hive can't do either but has a high Industry rating and free Police State to compensate. Angels can both popboom and run FM, but their SE traits don't directly aid economic development.

The last two tiers all have some penalty in SE factors like Research, Efficiency, Growth, Economy and/or Industry. The Cult can't even run FM on top of that. Edit: Well, they can, but they can't get +2 Econ. Same with the Hive.

Edit: Since GROWTH doesn't stack after +6, this means that having Eudemonia as anyone who can use both Democratic & Planned and doesn't have an automatic -1 GROWTH doesn't really make sense, since building Children's Creches after that will then trigger an automatic pop-boom in those bases. For either Morgan Industries, the Cyborgs, the Pirates or the Human Hive, use whichever early to mid game system/s aren't/isn't your Aversion plus Eudemonia once you can get it. Just remember to build the Creches. Eudemonia, Planned and Wealth in combination is a guaranteed +4 INDUSTRY. As the Hive, it's an absurd +5. As the Drones, it becomes +6; but that's a moot point because it doesn't stack after +5. You also forgot to mention the -2 RESEARCH of the Drones; they share this disadvantage with the Believers. However, the Drones can still use Knowledge; whereas the Believers cannot. Therefore, the Believers can't possibly have >0 RESEARCH; while the Drones can never reach >+2 RESEARCH. Since the Cult & the Spartans can't use Wealth and have -1 INDUSTRY from the get-go, they can't have >+2 INDUSTRY.

Offline WeMustConsentAI

Re: Faction ranking
« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2021, 12:42:44 PM »
For multiplayer:
1. Morgan and University
2. Peacekeepers and Drones
3. Hive, Gaians, Consciousness, Angels
4. Believers, Pirates, Spartans
5. Cult

Economic advantages are the most important for a succesful game. Hence the top ranking of Morgan, UoP, PKs and Drones. They can popboom, run free market and have social engineering benefits in stuff like Research, Economy, Industry, or extra talents/less drones.

Hive, Gaians, Consciousness can't do all of those. Gaians can't run FM, Consciousness can't popboom and Hive can't do either but has a high Industry rating and free Police State to compensate. Angels can both popboom and run FM, but their SE traits don't directly aid economic development.

The last two tiers all have some penalty in SE factors like Research, Efficiency, Growth, Economy and/or Industry. The Cult can't even run FM on top of that. Edit: Well, they can, but they can't get +2 Econ. Same with the Hive.

You certainly cover the basics of what a human player needs for any remotely successful game, but with flaws as explained below.

1. Chiron ("Planet") needs to be thought of too; and the PLANET/POLICE hit of the Market Economy is completely atrocious. High
populations and grandiose INDUSTRY also damage the Planetary Ecosystem (in other ways, yes; but nevertheless, they still do).
2. Early to mid game pop-boom requires the Planned Economy, which the Morganites can never use. Therefore, they can only do the pop-boom tactic in the late game, when they get the Eudemonic Future; and by then, Chiron has become so suspicious of the civilized world, that at least one Fungal Bloom will be experienced at least once every several turns no matter how optimized your Engineering Scores (i.e. minimum INDUSTRY/GROWTH and/or maximum PLANET). This can make your harvested squares go from being powerhouses of civilized activity, to completely unharvest-able wilderness. It's particularly bad with high Engineering Marks in things like GROWTH, INDUSTRY & ECONOMY, since the squares, in question, have to actually produce their respective resources to make those areas of any real use. Also, the Morganites have terribly low Habitat limits until you can get the proper technologies.
3. Energy lost to Inefficiency does literally nothing. Therefore, the Green Economy can be just as powerful as the Market one; and with less overall drawbacks. The Gaians have a direct EFFICIENCY/PLANET Bonus, whereas the Peacekeepers, the Morganites and the University do not. (In fact, the Peacekeepers begin with a slight EFFICIENCY Penalty that's only counter-able once they can get out of Frontier Politics, Survival Values and Simple Economics. On the other hand, the Planned Economy does give a nasty penalty to EFFICIENCY unless you're the Hive. [At least anyone else can be a Democracy in order to counter this.])
4. Harkening back to reasoning #1, there is occasionally no other way to deal with Drones directly, especially when you can't afford to deal with them indirectly (i.e. convert enough Workers into Talents). The Spartans, for example, gain a POLICE bonus by default; and Police State Politics & the Thought Control Future give more, but with a severe EFFICIENCY drawback except for the Hive. The Thought Control Future Society, on the other hand, has a crippling SUPPORT penalty unless you have The Cloning Vats. (At least you can still use Clean Reactors by then, since those units never cost anything to maintain.)
5. You forgot to mention something else about the University: they've got extra Drones until you can suppress them directly.
6. At least the Cyber-guys have direct bonuses to EFFICIENCY and RESEARCH. On the other hand, it can be pretty hard to deal with their GROWTH penalty unless you know exactly what you're doing. They can also have the Cybernetic Future without drawbacks.
7. The Data Angels only specialize directly in PROBE, which is only useful if you like to use Probe Teams. Otherwise, PROBE is made a moot point if you can get The Hunter-Seeker Algorithm.
8. You also forgot to mention the Future Society options at all. With Eudemonic, Wealth and Market, you can have either +3 or +4 ECONOMY, even as either the Hive or the Cult. With that much ECONOMY, there's really no way to get any richer unless you've got enough EFFICIENCY to otherwise be able to actually use all of that Energy. Anyone else meanwhile, is guaranteed to have an insane +5 ECONOMY. (The Morganites would have +6; but since the bonus doesn't stack after +5, it won't actually do anything. The same goes for every other Engineering Score except EFFICIENCY itself. This makes both Knowledge Values and the Cybernetic Future as either the University or the Cyborgs only good until +5 RESEARCH [-50% Labs Costs, no further stacking]. As either the Gaians or the Cult {or anyone else for that matter}, it's too little too late to truly stop the Mind Worms anyway. [At least they won't eat you alive, however.])
9. On top of all that, the Free Drones can't even have a Green Economy.
10. You made no direct mention of the Values Engineering systems. This is important because 1) the Angels can't use Power; 2) the Spartans and the Cult can never use Wealth, and 3) the Believers can't utilize Knowledge.
11. At that, a higher population creates extra Drones anyways unless you can suppress them.

These are all of the reasons that I can really think of now. Edits will be made as necessary.
For multiplayer:
1. Morgan and University
2. Peacekeepers and Drones
3. Hive, Gaians, Consciousness, Angels
4. Believers, Pirates, Spartans
5. Cult

Economic advantages are the most important for a succesful game. Hence the top ranking of Morgan, UoP, PKs and Drones. They can popboom, run free market and have social engineering benefits in stuff like Research, Economy, Industry, or extra talents/less drones.

Hive, Gaians, Consciousness can't do all of those. Gaians can't run FM, Consciousness can't popboom and Hive can't do either but has a high Industry rating and free Police State to compensate. Angels can both popboom and run FM, but their SE traits don't directly aid economic development.

The last two tiers all have some penalty in SE factors like Research, Efficiency, Growth, Economy and/or Industry. The Cult can't even run FM on top of that. Edit: Well, they can, but they can't get +2 Econ. Same with the Hive.

Edit: Since GROWTH doesn't stack after +6, this means that having Eudemonia as anyone who can use both Democratic & Planned and doesn't have an automatic -1 GROWTH doesn't really make sense, since building Children's Creches after that will then trigger an automatic pop-boom in those bases. For either Morgan Industries, the Cyborgs, the Pirates or the Human Hive, use whichever early to mid game system/s aren't/isn't your Aversion plus Eudemonia once you can get it. Just remember to build the Creches. Eudemonia, Planned and Wealth in combination is a guaranteed +4 INDUSTRY. As the Hive, it's an absurd +5. As the Drones, it becomes +6; but that's a moot point because it doesn't stack after +5. You also forgot to mention the -2 RESEARCH of the Drones; they share this disadvantage with the Believers. However, the Drones can still use Knowledge; whereas the Believers cannot. Therefore, the Believers can't possibly have >0 RESEARCH; while the Drones can never reach >+2 RESEARCH. Since the Cult & the Spartans can't use Wealth and have -1 INDUSTRY from the get-go, they can't have >+2 INDUSTRY.
For multiplayer:
1. Morgan and University
2. Peacekeepers and Drones
3. Hive, Gaians, Consciousness, Angels
4. Believers, Pirates, Spartans
5. Cult

Economic advantages are the most important for a succesful game. Hence the top ranking of Morgan, UoP, PKs and Drones. They can popboom, run free market and have social engineering benefits in stuff like Research, Economy, Industry, or extra talents/less drones.

Hive, Gaians, Consciousness can't do all of those. Gaians can't run FM, Consciousness can't popboom and Hive can't do either but has a high Industry rating and free Police State to compensate. Angels can both popboom and run FM, but their SE traits don't directly aid economic development.

The last two tiers all have some penalty in SE factors like Research, Efficiency, Growth, Economy and/or Industry. The Cult can't even run FM on top of that. Edit: Well, they can, but they can't get +2 Econ. Same with the Hive.

Sorry about the abrupt end to my edit there. I was starting to run out of time. Continuing on from where I left off, I've finally covered the most critical aspects of a successful game (i.e. EFFICIENCY, ECONOMY, RESEARCH, INDUSTRY, PLANET, etc.). According to this, there's no way for the Drones to get >+2 PLANET, making them the most ecologically destructive faction overall (not good to include with crazy-high population growth, mind-numbing-high economic output and outrageous industrial might; especially when trying to fully optimize the RNG/AI so as to get the highest possible scores). On the other hand, the ecological reinforcements don't stack after +3 PLANET; making both the Gaians & the Cult here a liability.

Moving on however, at least a single war is guaranteed in a game as complex as this; no matter how reluctant you are to use force. Therefore, we now need to cover MORALE and SUPPORT above all else. The Spartans gain +2 MORALE right off the bat. Power Values give them +4 MORALE total. This bonus doesn't stack after that however, so Thought Control is watered down even more; unless you'd rather have the extra POLICE and PROBE w/o the hit to RESEARCH and/or EFFICIENCY. Alternatively, the EFFICIENCY hit to Police State is a better trade-off; since Probe Teams aren't that great anyway. Of course, you could just sacrifice the extra SUPPORT from Power Values in exchange as well. (The Cloning Vats negate the -3 SUPPORT from Thought Control, and -2 INDUSTRY from Power anyway.) [The extra SUPPORT from the Police State is typically enough as it is, anyhow.]

Meanwhile, the Believers gain +25% Attack, and +2 SUPPORT. Therefore, either Power or the Police State is guaranteed to take them above the +3 threshold, whereas any other faction would need both of these systems to have either +4 or +3 SUPPORT.

Now for extra MORALE specifics: with both Power & Thought Control, you can easily achieve +4 MORALE as any other faction, and +3 as the Gaians.

Offline WeMustConsentAI

Re: Faction ranking
« Reply #44 on: April 02, 2021, 03:29:32 AM »
Actually, scratch. You were right all along about the Market Economy. You definitely need it to win at Specialist Difficulty and higher, especially in the One City Challenge. (Yet another strike against Deirdre!)

 

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