Sea factions game analysis and my new sea faction

[JoGr223]

2 of whom are disagreeing with you about Pirates.  Could it be possible, that we know something from our testing that you don't.

yes, thats why I proposed way to verify your views; I supposed it could be true Pirates AI is stronger than other AI in vanilla, since I now only play Thinker mod where they were v.weak; but they are still mostly average now as AI despite I gave them substantial boost in +1eco and +1 effic (effective +2 effic compared to original -1effic)

BUT YOU ARE WRONG ! 

Did you actually played a lot of vanilla games with Pirates or by Pirates? As AI they are 80% of time first in development and 20% of time they are second if they fall into some pretty disadvantageous ocean configuration.

this is completely wrong as now evidenced by scientific experimentations ! very easy to reproduce my results

TEST SETTINGS:
transcend, large map weak/rare/dense 30+% sea + pirates have at least 50% sea access at game start + game rules in screenshot in previous post; opponents: morgan, univ, peace, gaia, hive, drones.

test consist of just opening game switching to "view only mod" (various factions) and pressing enter till 100years pass

smax vanilla 2.0

RESULTS:
coverage setting/estimated actual ocean coverage/pirates sea access (as % of all water); all games pirates sea start give them access to at least 15% of whole map, so 50% of sea (30%/50% at least)/rank:

game1: 30-50%/40%/90%/5th
game2: 30-50%/30%/65%/5th
game3: 30-50%/40%/90%/5th
game4: 50-70%/60%/95%/7th
game5: 70-90%/80%/100%/2nd

Notice how they suck in game2-3 despite starting in the jungle; mostly this is a factor which predicts strongest faction (even here: gaia in game1, lal and drones in game4)

I planned to only run this experiment on 30-50% settings, but since they were so weak I raised it in their favour; turns out it only helped with 70-90% which are obviously extremely stacked conditions in favor of pirates and against land factions; in this game they actually won elections around year 60, but lost another elections ~30years later and ultimately placed 2nd

anyway main point is that statement like "AI is good in games therefore faction X is strong" is wrong methodology - AI is stupid so you can't make conclusions based on how AI plays - unless you want to design balance for the comfort of AI players; even if they were strongest as AI they may still be weakest for human players; I run this test just to check whether Alpha Centauri Bear actually knows anything about this game  since he made such bold and confident statement about pirates

also idk where this myth about pirates come from ? maybe cause they are just cool and on paper no enemies for a long time seems OP ? I created reddit poll on strongest factions for human players (not AI) and they won tying with hive (univ and aliens were banned from poll), each got 4 votes:
https://www.reddit.com/r/alphacentauri/comments/rkahk0/poll_rate_your_overall_best_faction_for/
maybe ppl just find it easier to play with them since no enemies

comparing to Thinker mod vanilla AI is such a joke, there they would have covered all map with 3-6x bases and 2-3x more tech and projects


proof:

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Hmm. Interesting. Maybe map size matters. Let me do the same testing.

AI playing certain faction good does not 100% prove that the faction bonuses themselves are good. I agree. However, it is a good approximation and the only test we can make. Everything else is just words.

[JoGr223]

Hmm. Interesting. Maybe map size matters. Let me do the same testing.

I also did 2 tests on standard/50-70% and results were conclusive (top3,top5)

[bvanevery]

I'm impressed that Thinker and WTP are both still at it

I can say, honestly, I am not at it 100% anymore. Mostly mopping some lingering issues and responding to user comments. I'd say most of the features I ever really wanted are implemented already and what's left is combat AI as you correctly pointed out. I tried to tackle it few times and realized that efforts are about 100 time more than I have already invested so I am just sitting there hoping I'll get 100 more free time at some point.
😁

Well, yeah, I'm obviously not at it 100% anymore either.  I'm quite pleased to say the gap between my last 2 releases, was 6 months.  That's new for me.  Indicates I've moved into a totally new stage of maintenance.

Competent combat AI is the stuff that commercial 4X games are made of.  I'm not going to kill myself on SMAC AI in that regard, unless for some reason I suddenly saw how it could be easily improved.  Like if I was poking at OpenSMACX one day and saw, hmm, what if I changed these few lines.

Rather much like making Clean Reactors available from the beginning of the game, was a huge improvement in the AI's performance.  Because it had the serious deficiency of running itself out of SUPPORT.  It's a hack, that's totally justified if you have no intention of changing the game binary at all.

Wouldn't it be funny if there's actually more AI combat competence in the game binary, and Firaxis simply turned it off, before shipping?  Like it played too well.  I mean, how do you explain the hesitancy of some of these "infantry base surround" rushes?  Seems like they could go for the jugular a lot faster than they actually do.

What language I'm going to prototype a new combat system and combat AI in, is an issue that pops in and out of my head every few days now.  Then of course I get sidetracked again by real life things, like needing to replace my car battery.  I know way more about that now than I should have to.

[bvanevery]

test consist of just opening game switching to "view only mod" (various factions) and pressing enter till 100years pass

100 years?  That's not a test of anything.  On a Huge map, I've barely got my own empire infrastructure underway by then.  I've probably popped a lot of supply pods, because I'm aggressive that way.  The only way you're going to get in a serious war with anyone in that timeframe, is if they happened to start right next to you.  And you probably have to choose such a war.  It's probably not going to be forced on you by actual map constriction.

Caveat: the Conquer oriented factions may get Recon Rovers by then and do a rush at you.  Which if you haven't prepared for, is rather lethal in my mod.  Not a problem if you've prepared, but there's a "press your luck" game mechanic to how you develop your empire.  The AIs don't succumb to each other's Recon Rover rushes because they stack their defenses with Clean Synth Garrisons early and often.  You try that on the AIs, you'll just bounce.  Not unless you've got a lot of infrastructure to really pump out the rovers.

Maybe I didn't pay good enough attention to what the original terms of the squabbling were about.  But "the Pirates are overpowered as of 100 years" doesn't mean anything.  Of concern, is whether the Pirates are overpowered over the course of the game.  Can they whip your butt, or other factions' butts.  With their +1 minerals bonus.

I haven't tried stock game in a long time and frankly don't care about it.  The stock game can reduce their power for other reasons.  Like the bugs I mentioned, and the unsuccessful aggression strategy.  It annoys the human player and doesn't actually achieve anything for the Pirates.  Now you change a couple of bit flags in pirates.txt and, uh, things change!

Here are my pirates.  Of course they are meant to exist with an alphax.txt that fixes various other problems.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Strangely Pirates don't do well in vanilla. Don't know why and don't know where I got this impression they are always ahead. Maybe in Thinker/WTP version before I removed +1 mineral. Maybe it gets them more optimized? Well, whatever.

[bvanevery]

I can test my pirates.  I just don't want to use up my 1 laptop right now, that I'm typing on, for the task.  Spare laptop is in a room with a lot of construction dust that I don't want to go into.  Ditto the desktop computers.  This house is a mess.  The traditional time to do this sort of thing would be while watching TV.  And those rooms are gross right now.  I'm washing clothes, sheets, towels, and taking showers multiple times a day.  I vacuum a lot.  Gawd!

At some point, I could finally read my Mom's old college papers on the USSR.  And have my laptop running at the same time.  But right now, I've still got a bit of real work I need to do on my laptop.  Like figuring out car batteries, grr!

Testing resources... bane of my existence.

[JoGr223]

100 years?  That's not a test of anything. 

But "the Pirates are overpowered as of 100 years" doesn't mean anything.

I feel offended about this. no test or evidence of anything is precisely what your posts are about

my mod

my mod

my mod

x10 or so

please stop derailing this topic with these ads/spamming of "your mod"; i dont care about your mod; this is topic about MY MOD; and my mod is Thinker mod + new faction

I haven't tried stock game in a long time and frankly don't care about it.

I feel the same about your mod

[bvanevery]

100 years?  That's not a test of anything. 

But "the Pirates are overpowered as of 100 years" doesn't mean anything.

I feel offended about this. no test or evidence of anything is precisely what your posts are about

Feel free to dial back your level of hostility in this forum at any time.  You're new around here.  It's ok to have a pointy argument.  It's not ok to keep taking potshots at my integrity.  I've most certainly "earned my place" as far as how this game mostly works, even if I don't know every phenomenon possible in the game.  No one could know... something you need to remember, when saying other people's claims are baseless.   "Tests", what do you think I've been doing in my modding work for 3.5+ years?  I've run more AI vs. AI tests than you can shake a stick at.  It's how I ensure my factions are balanced.

If I wasn't clear enough the 1st time: "100 years" is like this game's equivalent of saying "Hello World" in programming.  It doesn't prove the strength of a faction over the course of the game.  There are bonuses that factions get beyond the first 100 years, like the Pirate minerals increase, Subsea Trunkline becoming available, and the ability to work the Ocean not just Ocean Shelf.  200 years is bare minimum for determining how a faction can do.  300 years, aka Mission Year 2400, is the point at which you should start being able to answer, "Can this AI faction win the game, or has it stagnated?"  AI factions in my mod do actually win the game by about 2450, usually by Transcendence.  It happens regularly enough, at least when only playing other AIs.

please stop derailing this topic with these ads/spamming of "your mod"; i dont care about your mod; this is topic about MY MOD; and my mod is Thinker mod + new faction

Your thread is titled "Sea factions game analysis and..."

You opened a discussion of how to do a sea faction.  I've been there, done that, in spades.  I have relevant experience.  You may not like hearing the experience, but that doesn't change how the game works.

[Nexii]

Strangely Pirates don't do well in vanilla. Don't know why and don't know where I got this impression they are always ahead. Maybe in Thinker/WTP version before I removed +1 mineral. Maybe it gets them more optimized? Well, whatever.

Pirates really suffer from the negative EFFIC. Sea empires tend to be the most spread since you have to put cities offshore. So pretty quickly half their bases make very little energy, which is the main resource from water (tidals are much stronger than mines).

If vanilla AI prioritized EFFIC more, I think Pirates would do okay in the vanilla game. So it's probably that they go for EFFIC more in Thinker if I had to guess.

[Nexii]

As for Pirates balance in Thinker I'm not sure it makes sense to boost up an aquatic's faction bonuses. If they just settle onto land then they win easily. The imbalance is more of a land vs sea thing to solve. You could either make sea units cheaper, or sea FOP a bit higher, or adjust land vs sea terraforming times.

It's funny cause I once considered sea FOP to be overpowered in crawlerless play. In peaceful games the high energy focus leads to incredible levels of commerce. I recall one game where Believers were on the sea the most and out researching everyone (many treaties/alliances and global trade pact). It kind of opened my eyes to the potential. I feel like Pirates are a faction that would do better with Pacifist mindset. Is the Thinker AI more war-like or about the same? That could be part of it too. I feel like a sea faction should run away with it if everyone is peaceful, sea tiles make 5E each with +2 econ and thermocline. Much faster to plonk down than boreholes.

[bvanevery]

Pirates really suffer from the negative EFFIC.

My pirates don't have EFFIC (JUSTICE) or GROWTH penalties.  They also focus on Explore Build, not Explore Conquer.  A pure Build focus definitely centralizes an empire's development more.  An Explore focus tends to scatter it to the winds, especially on water.  I haven't thought much about their Explore Build hybrid strategy lately.  I'd make them pure Build except that that's Morgan's schtick.  In my mod, all 14 factions have a unique combo of research priorities.  Which do, for some reason, also affect AI behavior.  I've got "coverage" of all the possible AI strategies, except for "study nothing" and "study everything".

As for Pirates balance in Thinker I'm not sure it makes sense to boost up an aquatic's faction bonuses. If they just settle onto land then they win easily.

Fortunately not a problem in the stock binary.  Pirates will mostly stay in the water.  It's not like Thinker's "these are pirates??" landlubbering stuff.

[JoGr223]

I feel like Pirates are a faction that would do better with Pacifist mindset.

yea, I designed them this way, kind like sea-morgan; but I overlooked some stats since I was mostly focusing on human play; I adjusted today "-1, 0, 0, 1, 1," and after 2 games of AI tests I see they are much stronger

Is the Thinker AI more war-like or about the same?

I noticed in late game (~120+years on standard map) Thinker AIs tend to go total war with each other, but not sure, might depend on many factors; early game if u play "Aggressive AI' settings - then definitely, or when I recently played "hive the noble peaceful man" after 50-70 years or so everyone gradually break pacts with me and then i get sudden attack from morgan; another game as morgan in ~2271 year: I get sudden "pact break and attack" from lal, despite morgan I run dem; note this game i was observcing AI all game and IIRC morgan and lal were allies most/all games but then I took over and play morgan in 2268.

[bvanevery]

I adjusted today "-1, 0, 0, 1, 1," and after 2 games of AI tests I see they are much stronger

Yeah I did those exact settings in my mod version 1.8.  June 10, 2018.  3.5+ years ago.  Also changed their Agenda from Power to Wealth.  I'm on mod version 1.52.  Been doing them that way for a long time.  Have, at times, had to adjust tech tree stuff to enhance their play.  Like what part of the tech tree is Doctrine: Initiative in.  And fix aforementioned pirate specific bugs.

[EmpathCrawler]

I feel like Pirates are a faction that would do better with Pacifist mindset.

yea, I designed them this way, kind like sea-morgan; but I overlooked some stats since I was mostly focusing on human play; I adjusted today "-1, 0, 0, 1, 1," and after 2 games of AI tests I see they are much stronger

Is the Thinker AI more war-like or about the same?

I noticed in late game (~120+years on standard map) Thinker AIs tend to go total war with each other, but not sure, might depend on many factors; early game if u play "Aggressive AI' settings - then definitely, or when I recently played "hive the noble peaceful man" after 50-70 years or so everyone gradually break pacts with me and then i get sudden attack from morgan; another game as morgan in ~2271 year: I get sudden "pact break and attack" from lal, despite morgan I run dem; note this game i was observcing AI all game and IIRC morgan and lal were allies most/all games but then I took over and play morgan in 2168.

Were you and Lal the top two in the power rankings? I'm pretty sure that the AI is designed so that the top two factions won't get along as a sort of mandatory Social Darwinism, even if your politics and behavior align. I think that's the standard behavior and that Thinker doesn't do much to diplomatic AI, at least not according to the notes on GitHub. You may have also triggered some AI anti-human logic by taking Morgan over.