WtP SP costs

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

No I mean as the game progresses, by turn or techs. Not by difficulty level

I meant the same. Both you and AI grow exponentially. However, AI exponent base is bigger at higher level. So it outruns you more and more as game progresses. This is not a difference in speed but in acceleration. Meaning if it is twice ahead of you by turn 50 it will four times ahead of you at turn 100 and eight times at turn 150. It will double relative advantage every 50 turns. (number are just an example)

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

You know what, dino. Why am I defending this SP cost at all? It's not like it is some cornerstone of my mod. It is not something difficult to change either. This is all in txt configuration.

Just let me know what you want them to be and we be done with it. Even easier you can change them yourself in alphax.txt until you are satisfied and then send it over for me to merge into my release.

It's fine, I was under impression that discussion is going toward increasing their costs even further.
It's your mod, don't design it completely by cometee. I'm unlikely to take it as it is anyway.
( but will try it again at some point for sure and I'm forever grateful for the changes to the combat you've made).

I don't mind committee opinion in some areas at all. As you correctly said, this is pretty narrow purposed mod. Everything else is welcome. I like to even merge it with others if they find it beneficial. So by all means, share your preferred SP costs when you test them and find satisfactory.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Someone always snowballs.

That's right. However, it was always difficult for me to snowball in Thinker. That is why I was curios how you beat it in every game. You might be more seasoned player than me.

Its also tactics - because all those abilities give player edge. For example amphibious or drop make game easier - AI can't use it as well as player. Another one is mag-tubes.. i think AI should build magtubes even if player can use them, its lesser evil. Thinker disabled magtubes - i think thats mistake .. at least in WTP settings

Yeah, yeah. However, this is why AI is given economical advantage to compensate for weakness.

Thinker disables magtubes??? I don't think it is disabled in WtP.

One thing that turns struggle to easy in the end is op superprojects - and i found i could get them all because they are expensive.

I guess this is what we are working on now. Next step could be actually limit their OP features directly.

[dino]

Thinker AI doesn't build magtubes at all, but with modified combat in WtP it definitely should, it would allow it to counterattack damaged invading force before it can heal.

[Nexii]

I meant the same. Both you and AI grow exponentially. However, AI exponent base is bigger at higher level. So it outruns you more and more as game progresses. This is not a difference in speed but in acceleration. Meaning if it is twice ahead of you by turn 50 it will four times ahead of you at turn 100 and eight times at turn 150. It will double relative advantage every 50 turns. (number are just an example)

In practice the AI doesn't keep the same acceleration is what I'm saying. Its doubling rate slows down due to inefficiencies in play tactics. A lot of it is in how it manages military movement and support. And also when to build facilities and which facilities. Or when to run growth to boom or +2 ECON safely. Thinker I'm sure has improved this with the AI using advanced terraforming, but nonetheless the rate will degrade. Whereas a human can maintain their rate, which while at first is slower will eventually overcome the AI.

[lolada]

That's right. However, it was always difficult for me to snowball in Thinker. That is why I was curios how you beat it in every game. You might be more seasoned player than me.

Hehe 1 - 0 for me Well its basicaly turn advantage from better management/rushing and as Nexii said better build orders, better efficiency. AI also sometimes chooses stupid SE - i see them ruin their efficiency. They build way too much military - but thats part of the challenge.. here more works for AI. AI with weak military is easy pray for player in vanilla or plain thinker mod.

Maybe one of the biggest advantages for the player is rushing and your mod made it even easier for facilites. Player can rush every recycling tanks, every recreation commons at some point - last x turns at least and thats ton of turns over AI. And eventually with base spam it all adds up. Then for example one can neglect research for industry for example and steal lots of tech. Combination of those works for me. For example changing facilities to 3 energy per mineral would make game visibly harder  - i don't suggest that

I've not even once seen magtubes by AI - Thinker taught AI NOT to build them - reason was: player uses it to steamroll AI - AI patfinding can't use it to full extent. AI ignores magtubes so it (i presume) stupidly goes of and lose movement points - but even that is better than no magtubes i think. You can't steamroll AI in WTP so they should be turned back on.

Before:

After:

Looks like they rushed it with 200+ energy credits. They had 390 more so they could have rushed it earlier maybe but its ok i suppose. Cyb. Con. also was building project and was 3 turns behind Drones.

Secret projects in game so far. Btw i have weird bug.. maybe Fundamentalist+ is too long ?!

I've managed to get 2 secret projects with 4-5 pop capital and 14-15 minerals. Rushed last 3 turns both times.. I switched to +2 industry to finish second project.


q: Hm why did you put The Manifold Nexus in build tech? Somehow to me makes sense its on explore branch. This is second time Drones get it and they can't really use it (to full potential). Once i saw Morgan get it. Seems weird. It might be better idea to put somewhere where Deirdre and Cha-Dawn can get it.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Thinker AI doesn't build magtubes at all, but with modified combat in WtP it definitely should, it would allow it to counterattack damaged invading force before it can heal.

Wow. Didn't know that. Probably I should enable them.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

I meant the same. Both you and AI grow exponentially. However, AI exponent base is bigger at higher level. So it outruns you more and more as game progresses. This is not a difference in speed but in acceleration. Meaning if it is twice ahead of you by turn 50 it will four times ahead of you at turn 100 and eight times at turn 150. It will double relative advantage every 50 turns. (number are just an example)

In practice the AI doesn't keep the same acceleration is what I'm saying. Its doubling rate slows down due to inefficiencies in play tactics. A lot of it is in how it manages military movement and support. And also when to build facilities and which facilities. Or when to run growth to boom or +2 ECON safely. Thinker I'm sure has improved this with the AI using advanced terraforming, but nonetheless the rate will degrade. Whereas a human can maintain their rate, which while at first is slower will eventually overcome the AI.

Exactly! It doesn't and lose momentum while it should crush human when it could. That is not a problem of everincreasing bonus but the AI who cannot use it.

More specifically, AI heuristic should adjust to game state, empire size, technologies, etc. Tuning AI is hard.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

q: Hm why did you put The Manifold Nexus in build tech? Somehow to me makes sense its on explore branch. This is second time Drones get it and they can't really use it (to full potential). Once i saw Morgan get it. Seems weird. It might be better idea to put somewhere where Deirdre and Cha-Dawn can get it.

Tech tree tuning and correct placement of all features is a very-very-very hard task. I believe it is now somewhat better than in vanilla (where it is a complete mess). However, I gave up doing it alone. Only if someone team up with me.

[bvanevery]

Remind me of what Sid Meier talked in that GDC talk.. they envisioned game where civilization rises and falls (as in history) and you are supposed to rise again. And what happened is that noone would play it because players quit or reload -_-. Lel.

When you free yourself of the artificiality of "immortal empires", it begs questions about what it means "to win".  Especially in the modern era, where having everyone lose is a much more straightforward outcome for the human race.

In other thoughts, I've seen no evidence that the Network Backbone is actually a powerful project.  It sounds powerful, but I've never noticed my tech actually being boosted substantially for having built it.  And I do of course do the "super capitol" thing.

In other thoughts, after 2 years of course I think my techs are in all the right places.

[lolada]

Tech tree tuning and correct placement of all features is a very-very-very hard task. I believe it is now somewhat better than in vanilla (where it is a complete mess). However, I gave up doing it alone. Only if someone team up with me.

Yeah its complicated it needs to be thought through,. Its just my initial observation - i didn't know if you had some special reason to place it in build branch. That said i've no idea if it would be better or worse if moved elsewhere  . I'll suggest something if i see that it could help. Its too early for me to give good advice.

I find it interesting how things turn out when they are weirdly placed or priced. For example 800 min The Command Nexus was hard to build and it took quite a lot of time - so initial reaction is this is wrong. But it had effect to always be there in early game, meaning AI (or player) would switch to it and didn't waste production due to lack of tech when their SP is completed by someone else. So they then chain build second tier of projects one The Command Nexus was done or just switch in-between. That was convenient.. maybe one AI loses ton of minerals in the end its hard to predict.
Still when you take positives and negatives i think its better that its cheaper - it lets you finish SP and move on do other things, there's plenty of things to build in early AC.

The Manifold Harmonics SP was op - but it is out of the way of Planet factions so its nerfed that way balancing it. Basically chances are they won't build it, but they can conquer it. It also stops player from easily getting it. I've seen these factions use it to some potential with  0 or +1 positive rating - from what i've seen they won't switch to Green.. player can switch but there's big penalty in Green. When you take that into account this project loses on power.

Now fungus is changed so that needs to be tested first. I am using it with Morgan its 3-0-3 tile (i have +1 energy SE). Unexpected thing is they way you set up SE i am using Democratic/Planned/Wealth and have tons of pluses including +1 Planet (i landed near manifold Nexus). So for example its perfectly possible to have good use of the project with Morgan.

In other thoughts, I've seen no evidence that the Network Backbone is actually a powerful project.  It sounds powerful, but I've never noticed my tech actually being boosted substantially for having built it.  And I do of course do the "super capitol" thing.

Yes good point, for example I've never build the project. We talk about thing as we know them, but some were never tried. I can see it giving like 100+ science - its strong. But then thats like one extra strong city (only energy..) - my best cities at endgame approach or go over that number. Maybe its not even op - but i never built it so i don't know. Thats why playtesting is the best way to try things. As alternative its possible to ramp up one city to high potential quite quickly in endgame - maybe even easier than to build this project if its highly priced.

In other thoughts, after 2 years of course I think my techs are in all the right places.

This would be interesting to see. I still didn't try your mod - i got into this aar and wtp changes - but I'll see to try it sooner rather then later, it looks interesting.

[dino]

Thinker AI doesn't build magtubes at all, but with modified combat in WtP it definitely should, it would allow it to counterattack damaged invading force before it can heal.

Wow. Didn't know that. Probably I should enable them.

You have bad memory, you are being made aware of this at least third time

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

In other thoughts, I've seen no evidence that the Network Backbone is actually a powerful project.  It sounds powerful, but I've never noticed my tech actually being boosted substantially for having built it.  And I do of course do the "super capitol" thing.

On normal map you probably get somewhere 100 for commerce and 200 for other nodes on the planet. So 300 research. Not bad addition to like 1000-2000 total research you have in end game but not game breaking, of course.

That is why it is not that insanely expensive for end game project in WtP but I can make it even lower.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Yeah its complicated it needs to be thought through,. Its just my initial observation - i didn't know if you had some special reason to place it in build branch. That said i've no idea if it would be better or worse if moved elsewhere  . I'll suggest something if i see that it could help. Its too early for me to give good advice.

Thinking through is not a hard thing. I did this all the time. The biggest problem is that everything is inter dependent with everything. Any small change causes everything else to change. Fixing one thing breaks others. There won't be absolute perfections.

Therefore, I dropped all the unimportant conditions like "game lore" and "research path" because they are difficult to define. I only make sure that certain features appear at certain time and some features are also chained (like weapon and armor). Everything else is more or less arbitrary. I try to keep "game lore" whenever I can but its not a definitive factor for me.

That said the "lore" and "paths" could be slightly improved if one would spend tons of time trying different combinations. It is not possible to just set them without breaking everything else.

I also welcome any suggestions on moving techs and stuff around if they are currently doesn't feel in place. Some isolated changes can be done.

The Manifold Harmonics SP was op - but it is out of the way of Planet factions so its nerfed that way balancing it. Basically chances are they won't build it, but they can conquer it. It also stops player from easily getting it. I've seen these factions use it to some potential with  0 or +1 positive rating - from what i've seen they won't switch to Green.. player can switch but there's big penalty in Green. When you take that into account this project loses on power.

I don't think it is OP. It requires +3 PLANET to double fungus production and this have multiple drawbacks. Even with such rating it'll turn fungus from something 2-0-2 to only 3-1-4 in mid game which is nice but not broken. It is most time useless for PLANET impaired factions, etc. Not a universal weapon. I'd like to see someone getting it and grow from inferior to superior nation.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Thinker AI doesn't build magtubes at all, but with modified combat in WtP it definitely should, it would allow it to counterattack damaged invading force before it can heal.

Wow. Didn't know that. Probably I should enable them.

You have bad memory, you are being made aware of this at least third time

Every time it is a surprise.
😂