SMAX - The Will to Power - mod

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Thank you for playtesting and analysis.
If you also can mention the version it would be even better to know what exactly features are in play as I keep modifying them based on user input.

I almost completed my first game on Transcend and I had a great time. I really like how the Gaians focus on fungus terraforming later in the game. It really adds a lot of flavor. The Gaians may not have had the biggest bases (which fits their ideology) but they became the runaway tech leaders and most powerful faction (see image below), surpassing even the University.
...

The Peacekeepers focused on an almost farm-only build. Given that farms provide more nutrients in WTP it worked wonders for them due to their habitation/talent bonuses. It may have been a coincidence, but the Morganites focused heavily on Echelon Mirror farms which also suits their identity.

I didn't specifically work on the faction agendas. This could be something in the vanilla that controls it. From the other side, it could be a synergy of terraforming and faction SE (both innate and chosen). Formers weight each improvements against anticipated base benefit. It could be that Morgan running high ECONOMY result in increased value for energy as it multiplied by commerce, etc. That's why increasing energy intake computes to be more beneficial in the moment.

Same exactly for Gaians with their innate +1 nutrient from fungus and probably inclination to PLANET in general. Fungus yield just start to beat others. Thanks to careful balance of conventional and fungus farming. Fungus should be slightly inferior in general but may win with some bonus combinations like extra PLANET and especially with The Manifold Harmonics.

Overall, I am quite pleased with sensible terraforming matching to faction needs. I was hoping something like that should be happening so glad to see it in action.

I've been trying to create some distance between myself and their empire by taking a number of sea bases but resistance has been tough. I've lost nearly a dozen Quantum/Gravitron Cruisers/Interceptors before I could make some progress and now my campaign has stalled because the Gaians have build Tachyon Fields around the bases which were under threat.

I've teached AI to evaluate the threat to each base and to pump up military production and garrison. Very very rudimentary. Nothing sophisticated but they should be responding in at least the volume of defensive units at border bases.

I think it is still possible to take over their bases with carefully planned assault with lots of artillery to reduce their defense.

After the AI ended their expansion phase (50 bases in Thinker.ini) they got a power spike around 2310 and went crazy. The WTP/Thinker AI is  adept at building infrastructure, increasing science and within two decades I went from Unsurpassed to Wanting and I had go all out in order to keep up. Three factions declared war on me and I lost several of my outer bases in a combined Penetrator/Cruiser/Artillery attack.

Hmm. I am not sure this expansion limit applies in WTP. Need to check. Isn't it just because they colonized whole planet?

- Missiles/Planet Busters are surprisingly cheap. In the endgame i can finish a PB within a few turns.

Yep. Some misbalance in their chassis and payload cost. Updated in latest versions. Will see how it goes.

- The AI builds Tectonic Missiles, which is a nice surprise, but are they able to use them effectively?

No slightest idea, honestly. I didn't even touch this. There are so many interesting end game features not in scope of my attention. People rarely report them as they rarely see them. Good that you noticed it.

While we are on the topic I can express my opinion that these new payload types are one of many stillborn children of SMAX. They are not doing anything new that formers cannot do already and they are not doing it somewhat significantly cheaper especially fungal missile. Overall, it is not some new concept that opens door for some new tactics/strategy or interesting turn in the game. I never used them and I never saw any other player mentioned to use them and I never saw AI ever used them to my knowledge.

- Some of the later buildings feel too expensive. There is a pretty big gap between Tree Farms and Hybrid Forests and I find myself skipping the latter most of the time. (The Ai doesn't seem to be building them either)

Hybrid Forests is twice as expensive in vanilla and I kept this proportion. I guess this is intended to not make it built automatically everywhere but only in very advanced bases or something. Let me know if you think they need to be cheaper.

That is true for all other similar multiplier buildings: minerals/economy/labs/psych.

- Orbital improvements are pretty steeply priced as well. I used to build them to give my empire a nutrient/energy boost but due to their cost I couldn't find the right moment to use them here.

Intended. Previously people complained that due to their (relatively) low cost in vanilla they just immediately build them to saturate all bases. Now there should be some trade-off between them and other facilities.

- The later Secret Projects also feel too expensive. Around the time I got projects like Space Elevator/Cyborg Factory/Universal Translator it takes a pretty long time to build them, and in my case I had already reached the endgame before I could make use of them.

I guess this is common end game problem. Any end game endeavor would seem expensive comparing to the time left to play. When there are 50 SPs in game one doesn't need to build them all to win. I can sure reduce their cost to make them more interesting to build in end game if you are up to it.

-This was already pointed out by bvanevery but the Ai overall seems generous in trading techs. The AI was willing to sell or trade me the more exotic techs (like Planet Busters/Graviton Weaponry/Orbital tech) for pretty good terms. I felt a kind of reassurance from this and I decided to lower my science budget for a stronger economy.

I'm not sure if it's possible but to encourage the player to invest more in end-game research the AI should be more "stingy" or demanding when it comes to techs above (for example) level 9/10. Like: I trade you this Discover 13 tech in exchange for this Build 9 tech, Conquer 10 tech and 4000 energy credits.

True. This is on TODO list but I still not sure what is the best way to implement it. Thoughts so far: reduce overall AI willingness to trade or restrict it to lower level tech or same level tech exchange, etc. Suggestions are welcome.

[Rocky]

Thank you for your detailed reply. I appreciate it. Hopefully I can post my reply this weekend.

The last few days have been more busy but I had a short break tonight and played a few more turns. I've been able to take the number 1 spot again after completing 3 Secret Projects (Space Elevator, Cyborg Factory and Bulk Matter Transmitter; The Gaians snatched the Universal Translator unfortunately) and taking a few sea bases from the Believers. The Gaians had forced the Believers into the war─They're Pact Sisters (I'm now up against Gaians, University, Believers and the Spartans─Luckily the latter two have been fighting each other for a long time so their attention isn't really focused on me)

The Gaians have been consistently using Veteran/Commando level air units. The air battles were intense. My interceptors were dropping like flies until I went with Fundamentalist/Power, and it's still a close call.

Then the Gaians did this. I can't remember seeing this before:

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Wow! Cool. I never saw it either. You must be at the very late stage of the game which now seems to be reachable.

No rush in reporting. Take your time.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

I am the point where all AI computation staff pile up to 1-5 seconds on a large map. Bound to optimize most of it now.
That is indirect answer why vanilla AI sucks miserably. People just didn't have powerful computers at the time and designers cut on everything they can.

[bvanevery]

I saw Domai light up a fungal missile the other week, I think.  Pretty sure that wasn't Thinker but WTP.  He did not make sustained use of them though.  I have no idea what he thought he was accomplishing, as he threw it at someone else.  Maybe he threw the only such missile he made?

I don't think I've ever seen any AI in any binary ever use a Tectonic Missile.  Tectonic missiles are a lot less tedious that land formers for raising land in the late game.  They can be used to lift sea bases out of the water.  You can't air drop or orbital insert into a sea base, so suddenly turning them into land, can make them much more invadeable.

Also tectonic missiles could be of theoretical use in an apocalyptic deluge, such as when you use illegal chemical weapons and Planet punishes you for it.  It's very, very hard to keep up if you just use Super Formers.  I've got AARs on that subject, and it was a bear.  You keep trying to make Super Formers, and things keep sinking a bit faster than you can raise them up.  It's a never ending slough and not much fun to play.

The stock AI does know how to engage in extensive orbital warfare, if you let its production get that far along.  I'm surprised that I haven't seen that in Thinker or WTP.  It happens in my own mod if the AIs are allowed to get too far ahead.  There are 2 responses to this AI orbital spamming: Conventional Missiles, because they are cheaper and the AI will waste Orbital Defense Pods trying to stop them from hitting.  Or ground assault.  What does not work, is trying to out-compete an entrenched, large AI at making ODPs.  ODPs are defense pods, and have really bad kill ratios when they go on offense.  It's like 3:1.

[Rocky]

I saw Domai light up a fungal missile the other week, I think.  Pretty sure that wasn't Thinker but WTP.  He did not make sustained use of them though.  I have no idea what he thought he was accomplishing, as he threw it at someone else.  Maybe he threw the only such missile he made?

I don't think I've ever seen any AI in any binary ever use a Tectonic Missile.  Tectonic missiles are a lot less tedious that land formers for raising land in the late game.  They can be used to lift sea bases out of the water.  You can't air drop or orbital insert into a sea base, so suddenly turning them into land, can make them much more invadeable.

I haven't seen it either. One of the Ai's is sitting on a few Tectonic Missiles, but despite being at war doesn't use them. That's a great tip by the way about raising sea bases. I have to try that out next time.

The stock AI does know how to engage in extensive orbital warfare, if you let its production get that far along.  I'm surprised that I haven't seen that in Thinker or WTP.  It happens in my own mod if the AIs are allowed to get too far ahead.  There are 2 responses to this AI orbital spamming: Conventional Missiles, because they are cheaper and the AI will waste Orbital Defense Pods trying to stop them from hitting.  Or ground assault.  What does not work, is trying to out-compete an entrenched, large AI at making ODPs.  ODPs are defense pods, and have really bad kill ratios when they go on offense.  It's like 3:1.

I had the same experience with Thinker. I can't remember them being built. (Maybe a few) Haven't seen them yet in WTP, but maybe their cost makes them less accessible. The AI doesn't have to spam them but it does add an interesting layer to the game if you have to take them into account as a player.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Never mind about timing. I profiled the time with and without WTP algorithms and it seems that faction_upkeep (vanilla + Thinker) takes 1-5 seconds on large map with many bases and units even without WTP algorithms. So WTP impact is minor.

[Tayta Malikai]

Heyo, it's sure been a while. Just wanted to say it's really cool these mods are still being actively worked on with all sorts of new features being developed.

You might like to know that the PBEM group over at RPGCodex plays games with WtP now. Most of the actual Thinker/WtP changes are turned off, but the option for extra starting formers and colony pods is very handy, and the options to have PLANET bonus apply on defense and to nerf magtubes from their OP vanilla state are nice too.

[bvanevery]

the PBEM group over at RPGCodex

What part of their site does that exist in?  I tried looking through the Forums in the Strategy section, but didn't see anything.  Searching for "Alpha Centauri" in the forums also gave me a File Not Found.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Yeah. I'd like to follow this too. Share your secret base location, please.
😎

Also it would be nice to have a constant feedback on what works and what doesn't in MP too. So I may inquire about this there.

[Tayta Malikai]

General thread for yakking about the game is here.

Vanilla Game 1
Vanilla Game 2
Vanilla Game 3 (starring Nevill)
Binary Dawn Game 1
Binary Dawn Game 2
Binary Dawn Game 3
Binary Dawn Game 4
Binary Dawn Game 5
Will to Power Game 1
Will to Power Game 2 (in progress, just started)

In my opinion, the most entertaining ones are Vanilla 2 and Binary Dawn 1, but they all have their moments.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Your first few PBEM links are broken. Others are fine.

[Tayta Malikai]

Hover over your username in the top-right, and then check Alert Preferences?

Since it's XenForo, it's possible you previously saw an alert from the thread, and then moused over to dismiss it without opening the thread. You don't get subsequent alerts if that happens.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

I've checked them and all checkboxes are there. Will just visit it more often.

[Rocky]

@Alpha Centauri Bear

Thank you for your detailed reply. I appreciate it. The version I used in this game was 281.

I've made a fresh install and installed 285 for the next game. I'll add the factions I didn't use in the previous game.

I'll hold off on any suggestions because the last game was played with the Pirates, and I want to have a full game with a land-based faction this time, especially to see if mineral production will be different in relation to end game buildings/projects. I'm not an experienced player and I want to be careful to suggest something that isn't well founded.

One thing I do feel more confident about is the cost of a Hybrid Forest. Which felt like it kind of broke the "flow" of building up infrastructure. If you wish, would you consider changing the cost from 36 to maybe something like 27?

One thing I also noticed (and this may be something you've already changed) is that the AI doesn't colonize islands or uninhabited (small) landmasses. I remember Thinker AI colonizing islands as the Pirates. (Or an Ai which commits to expansion on the sea) They surrounded islands with sea bases and then built bases on it and terraformed it. It created production/economic hubs which gave the AI a lot of resources.

=== ===

EDIT: I missed your comment about tech trading.

Tech trading on an equal value level sounds good. The AI being more careful with technology also sounds good.

I feel it would be best if the AI is less willing to trade when it comes to key techs. It already seems to do this for Secret Projects, but I wonder if this can also be extended to key technologies which give things like: Reactors, weaponry that is currently state-of-the-art on Planet, air power, orbital tech, missiles, economic facilities like Tree Farms, tech that unlocks resources, etc)

It doesn't have to mean the AI will never trade them, but more that the AI values them more and takes the current geopolitical situation on Planet into account. (Like "I want two D9 techs in return for this C10 tech." "Instead of 250 energy credits, I want 2500." Or "the human player is allied with my enemy, I'm not trading these techs right now.")

An idea could also be that (AI) players which are rivals (Like being in the top 3 power chart) will make the AI even more cautious to trade key technologies because it could put their own position in jeopardy.

What should be avoided IMO is for the AI to value tech humans have as less than the same tech the other AI's have. That would create a kind of unfair feeling to put the human player at a disadvantage.

However, it would be okay for the AI to overcharge certain key techs. (If few factions have them) The argument can be made that these techs offer new options that will last throughout the game. The additional price tag could be justified as an "investment" for long term benefits.