SMAX - The Will to Power - mod

[dino]

We weren't talking about early game, only about specific midgame only colonization strategy: soft ICSing medium sized pure military production bases on the outer ring of the empire during mid game.

[bvanevery]

What's wrong with tree farms?  Mines?  Just how much production do you really think you need?  I've got enough vertical production to consistently beat WTP in SP races.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

One thing about PS

It has a huge benefit of police early on and even reduced support for them. So It is a great tool when you don't have sheer energy and psych multipliers. That period in game actually exists. Later on, yes, it may be a burden. But that is the idea of SE variety. Different choices shine at different time.

[bvanevery]

You need like size 12 bases to be benefiting from PS over conventional happiness facilities.  If you try to force that sort of base to exist early in the game, by adding colonists to an 'uptake' city, I think you'll find you're burdening the rest of your empire quite a bit.  Maybe if you had a couple of extremely fast colony production cities in midgame I'd think differently about it.  But midgame is not early game either.

It's even more egregious in WTP where colonies are actually quite expensive.  That's a lot of minerals that could be going into something other than population centralization.

[dino]

I've forgot about colony pod cost in WtP, you are right there is no good tool like crawlers, to artificially speeed up pop growth in WtP, in fact it was a design goal.

It backfires a bit by making mid game colonization feel a bit unrewarding and slow.

[bvanevery]

Simple answer for that.  By midgame your colonization should be over.  I've written a ton of posts on that theme.  You don't need lots and lots of cities to kick the snot out of things.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

You need like size 12 bases to be benefiting from PS over conventional happiness facilities.

I don't get why it is? Are you referring human play on Transcendent? If so then second citizen is already a drone that you normally quell with garrison even without PS involved. When you grow twice the base limit they are now all drones. PS allows to cheaply build 3 (three) police for the cost less than Recreation Commons and for bigger effect than it. I would say it is a huge time saving especially for extended empire of small to medium bases.

On top of this it grants more support which can be used either for these extra police units of for other units if some bases do not require that many police yet.
Maxing out early drone quelling benefits would give: 2+2+3 = 7. That accounts for base size 8 if you are below base limit and 7 if above. I would not say it is too unrealistic base size for mid game.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

I've forgot about colony pod cost in WtP, you are right there is no good tool like crawlers, to artificially speeed up pop growth in WtP, in fact it was a design goal.

It backfires a bit by making mid game colonization feel a bit unrewarding and slow.

You are right that absence of easy to trigger vanilla style pop-boom makes growth and continuous colonization not a no-brainer anymore. Yes that was a design goal. However, due to restriction lifted early, farm +2, and plenty of instruments to add to GROWTH (including easy to get Children creche, Habitation complex and Habitation dome) the growth speed is much noticeably faster than in vanilla. So steady and planned colonization is still rewarding.

As bvanavery correctly pointed out, there is no much point in colonizing just because there is an empty space. Such colonization is more of a burden than benefit. Of course, with vanilla constant pop-booming nobody thinks that through. Unlimited excess of population and cheap colony allows player to just vomit this excess population to empty space for almost no cost at all disregarding these newly created bases, not managing them because the whole empire treasury is not enough to fast develop them all instantly, and leaving them there struggling on barren lands to the end of the game.
In WTP there is still plenty of resources to continue and maintain target colonization without this excessive waves of colonists in all directions.


Oh. Bvanavery just chimed in on the same.

Simple answer for that.  By midgame your colonization should be over.  I've written a ton of posts on that theme.  You don't need lots and lots of cities to kick the snot out of things.

[bvanevery]

PS allows to cheaply build 3 (three) police for the cost less than Recreation Commons and for bigger effect than it.

In your mod?  That's certainly not stock, and sounds way cheaper than even I made it.  Checking your alphax.txt. 

Code: [Select]

Recreation Commons,            4, 1, Psych,   PlaEcon,  Fewer Drones
Punishment Sphere,            10, 2, MilAlg,  Disable,  No Drones/-50% TechSo: no, false.  And not even relevant, because you can't have a PS at the beginning of the game.  Like you can in my mod.  I have experimented with it.  Here are my costs:

Code: [Select]

Recreation Commons,            3, 1, Psych, SentEco,  Fewer Drones
Punishment Sphere,            4, 1, EthCalc,  Disable,  No Drones/-50% Tech

On top of this it grants more support

No it doesn't.  It supports whatever a base of that size supports.

which can be used either for these extra police units of for other units if some bases do not require that many police yet.

You meant to compare POLICE.  It does nothing for SUPPORT at all.  For instance if you happened to have a PS in the ocean with no minerals at all, it wouldn't be doing very well supporting stuff.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

This discussion is highly opinionated as any about SE choices. I don't insist on mine. Just adding some perception into discussion.

PS allows to cheaply build 3 (three) police for the cost less than Recreation Commons and for bigger effect than it.

In your mod?  That's certainly not stock, and sounds way cheaper than even I made it.  Checking your alphax.txt. 

Code: [Select]

Recreation Commons,            4, 1, Psych,   PlaEcon,  Fewer Drones
Punishment Sphere,            10, 2, MilAlg,  Disable,  No Drones/-50% TechSo: no, false.  And not even relevant, because you can't have a PS at the beginning of the game.  Like you can in my mod.  I have experimented with it.  Here are my costs:

Code: [Select]

Recreation Commons,            3, 1, Psych, SentEco,  Fewer Drones
Punishment Sphere,            4, 1, EthCalc,  Disable,  No Drones/-50% Tech

By police I meant any police like scout patrol. Not necessarily 2xPolice unit.
So 3 scouts < RC.
What punishment sphere does in this equation?

On top of this it grants more support

No it doesn't.  It supports whatever a base of that size supports.

Are you saying +2 SUPPORT does not reduce support?

[bvanevery]

The PS does not affect SUPPORT at all.  Go read the Datalinks.  Nor have I ever observed it to affect SUPPORT in any game I've ever played.

When you talk about a military unit functioning as police to quell 1 drone, be advised, your SE choices may not even allow for that.  Comparison between PS, Rec Commons, and Hologram Theater is more valid, because they are all facilities that take time to build, continue to exist in 1 place, have maintenance, and do not impact SUPPORT.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

The PS does not affect SUPPORT at all.  Go read the Datalinks.  Nor have I ever observed it to affect SUPPORT in any game I've ever played.

Are we talking about same thing? PS = Police State? Right?

https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Social_Engineering_(SMAC)

Police State
Prerequisite: Doctrine: Loyalty
+2 Support, +2 Police, -2 Efficiency (except Yang)

Am I delusional?

[bvanevery]

Oh F me.  PS = Punishment Sphere.  That was definitely the original context, when Dino brought it up and we kept talking.  But of course the abbreviation is ambiguous.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Nah. I messed it. Should pay closer attention to context.

[Rocky]

I almost completed my first game on Transcend and I had a great time. I really like how the Gaians focus on fungus terraforming later in the game. It really adds a lot of flavor. The Gaians may not have had the biggest bases (which fits their ideology) but they became the runaway tech leaders and most powerful faction (see image below), surpassing even the University.

I've been trying to create some distance between myself and their empire by taking a number of sea bases but resistance has been tough. I've lost nearly a dozen Quantum/Gravitron Cruisers/Interceptors before I could make some progress and now my campaign has stalled because the Gaians have build Tachyon Fields around the bases which were under threat.



The Peacekeepers focused on an almost farm-only build. Given that farms provide more nutrients in WTP it worked wonders for them due to their habitation/talent bonuses. It may have been a coincidence, but the Morganites focused heavily on Echelon Mirror farms which also suits their identity.

After the AI ended their expansion phase (50 bases in Thinker.ini) they got a power spike around 2310 and went crazy. The WTP/Thinker AI is  adept at building infrastructure, increasing science and within two decades I went from Unsurpassed to Wanting and I had go all out in order to keep up. Three factions declared war on me and I lost several of my outer bases in a combined Penetrator/Cruiser/Artillery attack.

In contrast to the stock AI WTP/Thinker AI does make good use of reactors and weaponry. I can't remember the stock AI ever go past Shard units but here we're already at Singularity units.

A few things I noticed (and which very likely have already been pointed out by bvanevery)

- Missiles/Planet Busters are surprisingly cheap. In the endgame i can finish a PB within a few turns.
- The AI builds Tectonic Missiles, which is a nice surprise, but are they able to use them effectively?
- Some of the later buildings feel too expensive. There is a pretty big gap between Tree Farms and Hybrid Forests and I find myself skipping the latter most of the time. (The Ai doesn't seem to be building them either)
- Orbital improvements are pretty steeply priced as well. I used to build them to give my empire a nutrient/energy boost but due to their cost I couldn't find the right moment to use them here.
- The later Secret Projects also feel too expensive. Around the time I got projects like Space Elevator/Cyborg Factory/Universal Translator it takes a pretty long time to build them, and in my case I had already reached the endgame before I could make use of them.
-This was already pointed out by bvanevery but the Ai overall seems generous in trading techs. The AI was willing to sell or trade me the more exotic techs (like Planet Busters/Graviton Weaponry/Orbital tech) for pretty good terms. I felt a kind of reassurance from this and I decided to lower my science budget for a stronger economy.

I'm not sure if it's possible but to encourage the player to invest more in end-game research the AI should be more "stingy" or demanding when it comes to techs above (for example) level 9/10. Like: I trade you this Discover 13 tech in exchange for this Build 9 tech, Conquer 10 tech and a few thousand energy credits.

I do like the increased costs for the earlier units/buildings. The higher priced colony pods give a much needed slow down to expansion and add a lot more weight to the decision where to settle or what to build.