SMAX - The Will to Power - mod

[bvanevery]

I don't think colonists should get instant teleportation for those ideas.  Rather, depopulation should produce colonists, and perhaps not under your control.  Because let's face it, you starved them.

The game would change some if killing a colonist was an atrocity.

I don't think anything good can come of giving units extra movement points.  Too easily abused.

[MercantileInterest]

No. In this scenario, you use the PTS to forcibly relocate the population to other bases. Not starve them.

The doubling road movement within territory is a step on the way to magtubes more than anything else.

Infiltration expiring after a time is probably for the better but it weakens the Planetary Datalinks, already one of the weakest projects. In single player, you're more advanced than everyone else by the time you build it. In multiplayer, the other factions deliberately stop trading to keep tech from falling into your hands. Infiltration expiring only makes this weaker. Would be for the better if the Planetary Datalinks also worked for techs already held by 3+ infiltrated factions, rather than only those which are discovered later. If you're already behind, you catch. Regarding the infiltration problem, three possible solutions:

(1) At the start of each turn, the project gives a 1/10th chance of infiltrating one random faction. (The Planetary Datalinks has discovered a bug in the Spartan Datanet. We have placed an infiltrator.)

(2) If you possess the Planetary Datalinks, your infiltration does not expire.

(3) Could just set the price very low in the alphax and accept it as a trash SP that you'd really only want if you already have the Empath Guild.

By the way, does Empath Guild infiltration expire?

[bvanevery]

No. In this scenario, you use the PTS to forcibly relocate the population to other bases. Not starve them.

You made a new base where 3 citizens can't eat.  Sounds like starvation to me. 

I did not read your obliteration idea 2. as being dependent upon the PTS.  I thought it was an independent comment.  Making it depend on the PTS, sounds like pretty funky complicated rules.  If you have the multiplayer bias, perhaps you don't care, but the AI doesn't understand such a thing right now.  "If the opponent has the PTS, with its funky rules, then I...?"  Or if I have the PTS, then I...?

The doubling road movement within territory is a step on the way to magtubes more than anything else.

I'm opposed to magic hand wavy capabilities for home territory.  Although there might be some possibilities of legitimate modeling of real world phenomena, like the Viet Cong being supported by friendly villages, that should have some pretty specific modeling of the forces and material movements involved.  A blanket "Hey the Reich always fights better, it's the Fatherland" is completely silly.  Enemies in war get their asses handed to them all the time.  That's pretty much what makes it war.  Nobody would do war if there was some magic advantage "it's my side, I win" like it's a game of tag.

In single player, you're more advanced than everyone else by the time you build it.

Not in my mod.  It's a Tier 3 Secret Project, same as many others, and costing my standard 300 minerals for an early project.  WTP makes most SPs very painful to finish, and this has consequences.

By the way, does Empath Guild infiltration expire?

That would be irrational / a bug.  Mods have also priced the E.G. as vastly more expensive than in the stock game.  You get what you pay for.

[MercantileInterest]

I'm talking about alternatives to the default rules for the Planetary Transit System, not supplements. The current ones don't make sense because they create new population out of thin air but only when a base is constructed or when the project is completed. If you could actually grow new-citizens in tanks, you would do it all the time, as with the cloning vats. Therefore, new bases not start at size three and not starvation.

ACB has already tinkered with the default rules because he finds them unsatisfactory.

I don't know whether the implementation of my suggested rules would be complicated. We know the game already ranks bases, because it shows lists of best bases in the datalinks.

It's hardly a magic hand wave to suggest that the Planetary Transit System affect transit.

I'm not suggesting what the Empath Guild should do. I'm asking what it already does.

[bvanevery]

Hmm, if it's just an anti-starvation SP, then my question is, why is that particularly helpful or important?  I don't consider starving a few colonists to be a big deal.  I also tend to manage most of my cities to keep that from happening in the 1st place.  So this would only provide me a benefit for 1 or 2 cities per game.  Not important to do that.

I don't consider the PTS as is to be a worthwhile SP either.  Smallpox is anathema to me, and that's probably the only circumstance where the PTS is a benefit.

PTS lowering the cost to build roads, or rails, or making rails available earlier, might be more thematically appropriate.  Thing is, rails are available plenty early in my mod anyways, so that's not a big whoop.

In stock, the Empath Guild's infiltration benefit is permanent.  I would expect it to be so in WTP, but I have not verified it.  If it does not, I say that's a bug.

[MercantileInterest]

You took crawlers out of the alphax. I had mistakenly thought you left them in but done some exe wizardy so that they could only crawl and not be used for projects.

In the readme, you mention issues with crawlers. Other than project exploits, what do you have in mind?

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

You took crawlers out of the alphax. I had mistakenly thought you left them in but done some exe wizardy so that they could only crawl and not be used for projects.

In the readme, you mention issues with crawlers. Other than project exploits, what do you have in mind?

Here.
http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=21359.msg126485#msg126485

Check all the posts that lead to this conclusion. Keep in mind this is not my sole authoritative decision but rather weighted feedback average. Feel free to continue this discussion if you like. I'm open to move either way, as always.

[bvanevery]

I did not directly participate in a supply crawler discussion.  However I think Tim knew my views on them well enough at the time.  Induktio wrote an AI that exploited and abused supply crawlers to the hilt, in concert with thermal boreholes and condensers.  This automated a lot of what the multiplayer crowd was doing manually.  It was pretty much the golden One True Successful path through the game.

It wasn't in my personal play style repertoire and not something I particularly enjoy.  I've done my worlds full of densely packed boreholes.  I've done my super capitols with a gazillion crawlers feeding it energy.  They're abusive and not that entertaining to do over and over again.  They're a form of grinding, so I don't do them.  I tend to do "forest and forget" because of that key word, forget.  You plant some trees at the beginning, mostly your job is soon done.  Doesn't put Planet thousands of meters underwater.

So, once I understood how some players and Induktio's AI would do things, I changed my mod to thwart it.  I didn't banish any of these tactics, but I substantially delayed them until the late game.  If you want to win that way, you can, but there are a number of other ways to win.  I deprived these tactics of their status as the One True Way to win the game.  I didn't want to be forced to slavishly imitate such tactics in order to keep up.

I also doubled the amount of time it takes to build these things, to slow down the hit parade.  And supply crawlers are more expensive.  That doesn't affect Secret Project goosing much, as you're just working with bigger denominations of minerals.  But it does penalize energy and minerals harvesting, which is very much my intent.  It shouldn't be quite such a gravy train.

Supply crawlers pose a real problem for game balance.  The stock game is in no way balanced with them, they are easily exploited.  Any mod worth its salt IMO, needs to do something about supply crawlers.  Banning them entirely, is a reasonable decision in my view, because they're that bad.  I took a more nuanced approach, but it doesn't trouble me at all, to see them gone.

I might suggest reusing the art assets for something though.  A binary mod, probably does make that possible somehow.

In my own mod, I banned choppers, with the exception of my 1 Unity Lifter unit.  I somewhat miss having chopper artwork flailing around.  However it's not worth the dire consequences to the game mechanics, of having the chopper chassis available.  My mod targets the stock binary only, no binary modding, so banning was the only reasonable option.  I did try choppers with few movement points, but they're so boring that I never build them.  They're especially useless on Huge maps, so I just said, time to get rid of them completely.

[bvanevery]

New game with version 197.  It includes a setting for making mindworms half strength until some turn.  I'm testing with the default of turn 20.  I will bump it to 30 if I experience problems.  In the stock binary, I have seen triple mindworm pod pops starting that year.

alternative_combat_mechanics_loss_divider=1.0
combat_bonus_territory=15
15,      ; Combat % -> intrinsic base defense
25,      ; Combat % -> Fanatic attack bonus
Trance Scout Patrol, Trance Formers, and Trance Sea Formers removed from predefined units.

Huge map, 30%..50% land, average settings.  Random opponents.  I drew the Cyborgs.

Details early xenofungal blooms

early xenofungal blooms

My starting location was reasonably lush, and I popped a minerals bonus immediately.  That made it a no brainer as to where to put my capitol.  However it was not obvious which way to go with the 2nd colonist as I had a lot of fungus around.  It was clearer than shown in the screenshot.  Up north, I explored the river system with my Colonist, but all I saw was dry scratchy land.  I used the roads I had created with my Formers to turn to the southeast.  I had a viable settlement spot, right where my Colonist currently is.  But in MY 2110 I popped 2 pods and got 2 fungal blooms, cutting me off to the northwest and southeast.

It's obnoxious.  If it proves to be a problem, I will file an issue about it, even if the issue is difficult to find a solution for.

Details still too early

still too early

I cut a hole in the fungus to rejoin my cities.  So far the fungal barriers haven't proven to be a dealbreaker, but they did have the effect of delaying my 2nd settlement quite a bit.  Consequently, MY 2123 is too soon to be being whacked by double mindworms of normal deadliness.  I saved the game and looked at the odds calculator.  It said I had a 74% chance to win, but based on previous experience with these events, I didn't believe it at all.  Sure enough, I died.  On a 2nd run I did kill the 1st worm, but took 90% wounds, so the 2nd worm will surely wipe me.  And of course it has spawned right next to the Mine that I painstakingly built on my 1st mineral special.

I edited thinker.ini:
aliens_fight_half_strength_unit_turn=30

Then I did Start New Game and loaded my saved game.  I don't think it picked up the new setting.  I was given the same odds of success.  I had a couple of times where I killed the 1st worm and only took 40% wounds, so at first I was encouraged.  But then I went through a lot of summary deaths, as before.  It doesn't seem to be any easier, so I will start a completely new game.  I am supposing that the setting gets baked at the start of the game.

[bvanevery]

New game with version 197.
aliens_fight_half_strength_unit_turn=30
alternative_combat_mechanics_loss_divider=1.0
combat_bonus_territory=15
15,      ; Combat % -> intrinsic base defense
25,      ; Combat % -> Fanatic attack bonus
Trance Scout Patrol, Trance Formers, and Trance Sea Formers removed from predefined units.

Huge map, 30%..50% land, average settings.  Random opponents.  I drew the Spartans.

Details bad maze

bad maze

MY 2119 and I still haven't settled my 2nd city.  Could not find anywhere that wasn't touched by fungus, very poor soil, and no resource specials.  I only popped the 2 Monoliths in the past 2 turns.  If the north turns out to be a paradise, well the joke's on me.  I only had enough units to explore what I did, and the fungal walls will force you to keep going certain directions.

When considering when to make the mindworms full force, the dynamic range of the badness of these starts needs to be considered.  I'm still suffering here.

The Data Angels came through with their probe team.  I sent them home.  The land was even drier than it is now.  They seem to have touched off a river or an earthquake somewhere.

Details hope they are weak

hope they are weak

MY 2123.  Got my 1st double mindworm pop.  We should be still in the half strength period.  How is this going to go?  My Scout is Disciplined.  I saved the game so that I can run this a few times to see what happens.  1st time, survived the 1st worm just barely, 2nd worm wiped me and hardly took a scratch.  I don't think that counts as "toned down" mindworms.  2nd time, 1st worm killed me.  3rd time, 1 mindworm lives with 30% wounds.  4th time, same thing.  5th time, 1 mindworm lives with 20% wounds.  6th time, both mindworms live.  That's enough runs.

I conclude that double mindworms are way too strong for this to be meaningfully easier.  These just don't seem to be "half strength" mindworms.  I'm not convinced that the new code in version 197 does what it's supposed to.  Maybe the year change is being ignored?

Details slapped with fungus

slapped with fungus

I decided to continue the game out of morbid curiosity for how bad this will get.  For my trouble I was rewarded with a fungal bloom next to my capitol.  Now the fungal maze is pretty much completely closed around me.

This is actually a good test of supposed "half strength".  I have 2 Green Scouts facing a somewhat maturing fungal tower.  I have been unable to Complete any Command Centers despite having popped a fair number of pods, so this is as trained as they were going to get.  It's a better case than average because I'm the Spartans.

Details abort

abort

The odds are terrible.  I don't even try.  I don't think "half strength" is happening with fungal towers either.  It's only MY 2125.

Details had enough of it

had enough of it

MY 2165.  A big fungal maze forces one to walk a long distance in order to settle stuff.  That also gives enemies a lot of chances to home in on you.  I lost a Scout wounding a Spore Launcher almost to death.  I had a 2nd Scout escorting my Colonist, so I thought I'd finish the almost dead thing off as I settled my city.

Then a Mindworm came up to join it.  I retreated and realized I'd be walking all the way back the way I came.  That's been pretty much the theme of this whole game.  Mazes stretch you out, I suppose.  Felt far too fatigued and bored to put up with this anymore, even if it may be a viable game in some sense.  It's a tedious tooth pulling game, that's for sure.  Looked at the clock and it's 3 AM, so not surprised as that's usually when I get in touch with my real feelings about how something is going.   Sleep is better.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Hmm. I think I removed tower 50% and they also should be subject of half strength. I've seen it in vanilla.


Yep. Removed the bonus but not display. Fixed in 198.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Details abort

abort

The odds are terrible.  I don't even try.  I don't think "half strength" is happening with fungal towers either.  It's only MY 2125.

Just a reminder that this is a result of vanilla multi round combat computation which turns 0.875 / 1.25 = 0.7 round odds into 0.28 battle odds (22% winning chance). WTP combat loss divider parameter smoothens it out a little. For example, with its value of 2 it would turns this combat odds into 0.5 (33% winning chance). Using one or another is a matter of preference, as usual.

[bvanevery]

Happy Thanksgiving!  Gobble gobble.
 
(closest holiday)

New game with version 198.
aliens_fight_half_strength_unit_turn=30
alternative_combat_mechanics_loss_divider=1.0
combat_bonus_territory=15
15,      ; Combat % -> intrinsic base defense
25,      ; Combat % -> Fanatic attack bonus
Trance Scout Patrol, Trance Formers, and Trance Sea Formers removed from predefined units.

Huge map, 30%..50% land, average settings.  Random opponents.  I drew the Caretakers.

Details the starting empire

the starting empire

Early spread was fairly easy because it's the Caretakers.  With more starting cities, they have more Scouts to push around.  Factions that start with a PLANET bonus, are also scripted to have their 1st mindworm and spore launcher captures automatically successful.  1st Isle capture is also frequently successful.  It's not really a good test of early spread issues.

I popped a forest on the nutrient special next to what became Consonance.  That's the city I'm using to generate Colonists.  Since I had a readymade forest mineral at Star Harmony, I took the unusual step of going for the Weather Paradigm early.  Since I can direct my research, I beelined for the Merchant Exchange so that I can get a cheaper project done fast.  In another 21 turns I'll have it, assuming I don't amass money, which I probably will from pod pops.

I also decided to use coastal cities to make Foil Probe Teams instead of the usual stuff.  Another tactic driven by directed research.  I haven't found anyone else yet though.

Details 96 percent yeah right

96 percent yeah right

MY 2128.  The odds calculator does verify a half strength Isle now.  However, I really don't believe the odds.  What claims like "96% chance of success" really mean, in many psi combats I've had in many games, is that I'm going to lose.  And just barely.  The pattern is so common that there's just no reason for me to believe the calculator.  I don't think it's selective observation.  Now that I've got "pause after every battle" turned on, I may be able to provide some rigor, to this empirical belief of mine that the odds calculator is flat out wrong.  If I really had a 4% chance of failure and just got unlucky this time, I should be having lots and lots of battles that I win, with only the occasional hiccup.  Whereas my "muscle memory" for these psi combats is exactly the opposite.  I almost always lose, and just barely.

Details triple match

triple match

MY 2129.  This is supposedly my last turn of half strength mindworms.  It's an opportunity to test the odds.  However I don't really need to fight, because my mindworm can kill the "back door" and give the Rover a route of escape.  Still I will save the game, and repeatedly see what can be done.

Not much need to do many runs.  Even the Hardened Unity Rover alone, can defeat 3 mindworm larvae.  Aside from the higher MORALE, the Caretakers also have the +25% Alien Defense and +15% PLANET bonuses working in its favor.   I don't think this is a valid test.  Since it's so lopsided, I'm going to start over with another faction, even though this game is going fine.  It's more important to find out what most factions experience, not a PLANET friendly faction.

I will reiterate my opinion that the magic Alien Defense and Alien Offense bonuses are lame.  It's not compatible with a world view of making them equivalent to 'normal' factions.  I modded those bonuses out eons ago.

[bvanevery]

New game with version 198.
aliens_fight_half_strength_unit_turn=30
alternative_combat_mechanics_loss_divider=1.0
combat_bonus_territory=15
15,      ; Combat % -> intrinsic base defense
25,      ; Combat % -> Fanatic attack bonus
Trance Scout Patrol, Trance Formers, and Trance Sea Formers removed from predefined units.

Huge map, 30%..50% land, average settings.  Random opponents.  I drew the University.

Details the scout out

the scout out

I started in a deep maze of fungus just north of the Garland Crater.  I did get an early mineral, but no food.  The Crater is currently useless because only 1 of its central squares is free of fungus.  I began planting forests around my capitol immediately, and now 29 years later, the situation is starting to improve.  I did eliminate a budding fungal tower northwest of my capitol, so the easy mindworms was working then.

I found I was on a sort of island, barely attached to another land mass.  It took me pretty much forever / the worst case / last place I looked, to find that land attachment.  The island was smaller and quite dry to start with, but an earthquake raised land to the east and improved the raininess.  Monoliths came rather late as I pushed my many Scouts around.  I was unable to Complete any Command Center, despite much trying.  Tech progress has been very slow as I've only had 2 cities this whole time.

MY 2130.  I'm only just about to establish my 3rd city next turn.  Most of my Scouts have walked to the land mass to the south.  Easy mindworm combat has expired this year, so I don't think I'll take out that fungal tower to the south.  There might be a lot of pods to pop.  I've also discovered that the Monsoon Jungle is on this land mass.  Hope it's vacant.  I think I got a fungal pop starting to explore it.  It'll be awhile before I can get to it and it's useful.

On the positive side, mindworms have not been trashing me.  I must be pretty isolated from other factions.  In the stock binary, I would call this a weird start, but not necessarily a bad start.  The power graph shows me as last place, but without anyone to interfere with me, I might be able to colonize all this land and do just fine.  The question will be whether the WTP colonization spam closes in on me before that can happen.

[LATER]  I quit at 2 AM.  MY 2201.  The Monsoon Jungle was too far away to be of any use.  In WTP, its food value isn't that superior compared to rainy land anyways.  I exceeded my EFFIC rating long before I'd even settled my island.  I only managed 1 infiltration, and even the Caretakers seemed to be ahead of me.  That's not a good feeling as the University.  I think my hugely delayed start, isn't a fair test of them, so it's not really worth continuing the game.

I am reminded that the University suffers a drone every 4 citizens.  I question whether that's fair for them in WTP, as they cannot get the Virtual World easily to compensate.

[bvanevery]

New game with version 198.
aliens_fight_half_strength_unit_turn=30
alternative_combat_mechanics_loss_divider=1.0
combat_bonus_territory=15
15,      ; Combat % -> intrinsic base defense
25,      ; Combat % -> Fanatic attack bonus
Trance Scout Patrol, Trance Formers, and Trance Sea Formers removed from predefined units.

Huge map, 30%..50% land, average settings.  Random opponents.  I drew the Cyborgs.

I had a nearly fungus free start.  I did not have any early mindworm hassles at all.  Consequently this game hasn't been any kind of test of early game issues.

Details bad unit design

bad unit design

MY 2210.  The Caretakers and I are in neighborly war.  They stupidly send multiple unarmored infantry probe team units to their deaths.  This is a bad unit design, and like the others I've listed above, should be removed from alphax.txt.  Units should never be designed for the convenience of players, ever.  They should only be designed for the benefit of the AI.  The AI simply can't use an unarmored movement 1 probe team intelligently.  It will try to use them on offense, and they will get killed.  The only time they are valid on offense is when they're riding mag tube networks, and I haven't even seen WTP build a mag tube yet.  Armored movement 1 probe teams can work if the armor is tough enough.  Unarmored movement 2 probe teams can work in some circumstances, but the stock AI has a bad habit of sending big stacks of those to their doom.  That's why I don't define unarmored probe teams at all in my mod.  The player has to figure out those designs for themself.

The other predefined AI units I've removed, are because the AI makes an unhealthy obsession of them.  If you tell the AI that a Trance Scout is "good for defense", it will build those almost to the exclusion of anything else.  On that scale of obsession, it is a massive waste of productivity.  They only hold up to mindworms, they cost 2x what a regular Scout costs, and obviously I'm going to attack with something that will plow right through them.

Details overpowered defense

overpowered defense

MY 2240.  2:30 AM.  This is the point at which I quit.  This war with the Caretakers has been like watching paint dry.  They are not effective, but bringing up my units without mag tubes takes forever.  I resisted building Genejack Factories for fear of environmental damage and unhappiness, so my unit output has been so-so.  They have all these silly defense bonuses and I'm quite convinced they have to go.  Earlier I was Green, but it took a sheer pile of captured mindworms to do any damage.  Eventually they all died and I went Planned.  That actually proved to be somewhat a mistake for my empire stability.  It's just all a dead bore, and made more remarkable by the Caretakers' utter inability to take advantage of my own weaknesses.  I think the AI must be horribly confused by all its city spam.

Activating the Scenario Editor, the Caretakers have 54 cities.  24 have Pressure Domes, so presumably sea bases.  They have 88 Scout Patrols, which at this stage of the game seems rather obsessive and unproductive.  The Scout Patrol entry hasn't been changed in alphax.txt though, so perhaps the AI just believes that a Scout is defensively a good deal.  13 ECM Silksteel Garrisons, 11 ECM Plasma Garrisons, 7 ECM Gatling Squads.  It's not really defending or fighting.

The force distributions of the other factions look reasonable.  No particular obsessions.

Nobody else really made it into direct conflict with me.  The Believers are on the other side of the Caretakers and finally moving in force against them.   I had may allies earlier in the game, some of whom fell by the wayside because I wouldn't do their wars.  The Cult of Planet is offshore but hadn't gone hostile when I quit.